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  • Originally posted by astralis View Post
    same with Charlottesville, with the rancher protests, the Proud Boys, III%, the Boogaloo, etc.
    You forgot Qanon, but fortunately Donald Trump and his Administration have disavowed them, and the FBI doesn't consider them to a be a domestic terrorist threat.
    .

    Oh wait, NONE of that is true!

    Mark Meadows Refuses To Disavow QAnon After Claiming He Googled It To Find Out What It Is

    White House chief of staff Mark Meadows insisted on Fox News Sunday that he hadn’t a clue about the dangerous right-wing conspiracy cult QAnon — and had to “Google [it] to figure out what it is.”

    “I don’t know anything about it,” Meadows said, even after his Google research, in a testy exchange with host Chris Wallace. He then refused to disavow the group, which has been labeled a domestic terror threat in a recent report by the FBI. He called the issue “ridiculous.”

    Meadows should have checked with Homeland Security’s acting Secretary Chad Wolf, who’s aware of the FBI’s conclusions about QAnon, and told Jake Tapper on CNN Sunday that he had no reason to question them.

    Meadows launched into a heated back-and-forth with Wallace during questioning about President Donald Trump’s increasing support for the group, whose disciples the president has insisted “love our country.”

    Meadows blasted Wallace’s question as “appalling,” and declared that it shouldn’t be asked with “all the important things going on.”

    Meadows finally insisted: ”I don’t see it as a legitimate thing that should be addressed, so we’re not going to address it.”

    Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

    Comment


    • None of those examples have anything at all to do with legislative problems. One has roots in 50 years of BLM/Rancher animosity, one in a state issue over monuments and the other as a reaction to your sides fielding of black bloc street violence.

      Comment


      • it's not the groups themselves, but the wider support of it. same thing with conspiracy theories like QAnon.

        in an earlier era, they would have been laughed out of town by the people in power, because consorting with those types would be deadly dangerous to political reputation.

        now, these nutjobs are getting -elected-, or are openly being pandered to.

        because Congress has turned from an arena of negotiation to an arena of posturing. and the more you posture, the more viral you are -- and the more funding you get.
        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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        • Isnít Roseanne Barr into that Qanon theory mumbo jumbo?

          But let me know wen the burn up a car dealership or loot up and down Rodeo Drive.
          Last edited by surfgun; 24 Aug 20,, 18:54.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by astralis View Post
            it's not the groups themselves, but the wider support of it. same thing with conspiracy theories like QAnon.

            in an earlier era, they would have been laughed out of town by the people in power, because consorting with those types would be deadly dangerous to political reputation.

            now, these nutjobs are getting -elected-, or are openly being pandered to.[

            because Congress has turned from an arena of negotiation to an arena of posturing. and the more you posture, the more viral you are -- and the more funding you get.
            I seem to remember your side yelling Russia, Russia, Russia and now it turns out that the whole thing was cooked up hook line and sinker by the Brooking Inst. Then of course the whole 1619 project and let us not forget the current whats old is new fad Marxism. Before that it was 9-11 was an inside job and Bush invaded Iraq for oil. Yet you want to concentrate on a few internet loons who think Epstien was just the tip of the iceberg... except There is a ton of evidence something is wrong in Holly Wood. No I am not a Qanoner, I think they are loons. IIRC They also think there is a deep state out to get Trump, something Trump thinks as well. Problem is we now have an FBI agent headed to prison and several people referred for prosecution of fired for cause in what sure looks like a deep state. But the Left studiously ignores all that and drowns it out with shouts of, "orange man bad"!

            Meanwhile those of us on the right keep trying to point out that hey your side now has committed tens of thousands of physical assaults and racist attacks, hundreds of sexual assaults, and several murders including the attempted mass assassination of a group of Congressmen not to mention billions in property damage and lost business but you never utter a peep.

            Comment


            • :shrug:

              this is why it's impossible to have a rational discussion, because I'm talking about legislative paralysis and its baleful effects on democracy, and you're talking about...something that's not legislative paralysis.
              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

              Comment


              • Originally posted by astralis View Post

                in an earlier era, they would have been laughed out of town by the people in power, because consorting with those types would be deadly dangerous to political reputation.

                now, these nutjobs are getting -elected-, or are openly being pandered to.

                because Congress has turned from an arena of negotiation to an arena of posturing. and the more you posture, the more viral you are -- and the more funding you get.
                It's not just the Congress though is it? All social and political discourse has deteriorated into posturing and symbolism. It was the media which started and propagated this. This has now spread far and wide into social media and into people's daily lives. The Congress is just one of the victims of this. The politician's fortunes depend on how they are portrayed by which section of the media. Getting praised by Fox News and pilloried by NYT is excellent news for a Republican but terrible news for a Democrat and vice versa. Now they have to be worried about getting canceled on Social Media as well. The only way to survive in such an environment is the right kind of posturing, on everything.

                It is the people themselves driving the Congress to this insanity.

                Comment


                • It's not just the Congress though is it? All social and political discourse has deteriorated into posturing and symbolism. It was the media which started and propagated this. This has now spread far and wide into social media and into people's daily lives. The Congress is just one of the victims of this. The politician's fortunes depend on how they are portrayed by which section of the media. Getting praised by Fox News and pilloried by NYT is excellent news for a Republican but terrible news for a Democrat and vice versa. Now they have to be worried about getting canceled on Social Media as well. The only way to survive in such an environment is the right kind of posturing, on everything.

                  It is the people themselves driving the Congress to this insanity.
                  IMHO, this isn't really an useful way of looking at it, because if it is the "people", or "media", then what solution is there?

                  i'd argue that it's a matter of political incentives. gerrymandering, elimination of the "pork barrel", the discovery that people-- and specifically, voters-- engage more with a message of outrage, all play a part.

                  my bottom-line is that there's so many factors playing into the destruction of the old system of compromise, that it's almost impossible to unravel now. much easier to break a vase than it is to fix it.
                  There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                    I seem to remember your side yelling Russia, Russia, Russia and now it turns out that the whole thing was cooked up hook line and sinker by the Brooking Inst.
                    Funny that you say that when a bipartisan Senate committee has said otherwise.

                    U.S. Senate committee concludes Russia used Manafort, WikiLeaks to boost Trump in 2016

                    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Russia used Republican political operative Paul Manafort, the WikiLeaks website and others to try to influence the 2016 U.S. presidential election to help now-U.S. President Donald Trump's campaign, a Senate intelligence panel report said on Tuesday.

                    WikiLeaks played a key role in Russia's effort to assist Republican Trump against Democrat Hillary Clinton and likely knew it was helping Russian intelligence, said the report, which is likely to be the most definitive public account of the 2016 election controversy.

                    The report found President Vladimir Putin personally directed the Russian efforts to hack computer networks and accounts affiliated with the Democratic Party and leak information damaging to Clinton.

                    The panel, formally called the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, also alleged Manafort collaborated with Russians, including oligarch Oleg Deripaska and an alleged Russian intelligence operative, Konstantin Kilimnik, before during and after the election.


                    The panel found Manafort's role and proximity to Trump created opportunities for Russian intelligence, saying his "high-level access and willingness to share information with individuals closely affiliated with the Russian intelligence services... represented a grave counterintelligence threat."

                    It was not clear what effect, if any, the report might have on the current U.S. presidential campaign in which Trump faces Democrat Joe Biden in the Nov. 3 U.S. election.

                    Opinion polls show former vice president Biden has built an expansive lead in nearly every battleground state that Trump won narrowly in 2016, as the Republican's approval numbers tumble amid the coronavirus pandemic.

                    Russia's alleged election interference, which Moscow denies, sparked a two-year-long U.S. investigation headed by Special Counsel Robert Mueller.

                    Mueller found no conclusive evidence of coordination between Russia and the Trump campaign in a report released last year. He pointed at 10 instances in which Trump may have attempted to impede his investigation but did not say whether this amounted to obstruction of justice.

                    Trump and his supporters have consistently bristled at suggestions foreign interference helped his upset 2016 victory and sought to discredit the intelligence agencies' findings as the politically charged work of a "deep state."

                    Founded by Julian Assange, WikiLeaks published thousands of emails hacked from Clinton's campaign and a top campaign aide in the weeks before the 2016 election, yielding a drum beat of negative coverage about the Democrat.

                    "WikiLeaks actively sought, and played, a key role in the Russian campaign and very likely knew it was assisting a Russian intelligence influence effort, the report said, saying the panel found "significant indications that Julian Assange and WikiLeaks have benefited from Russian government support."

                    As Russian military intelligence and WikiLeaks released the hacked documents, the report said Trump's campaign sought advance notice, devised messaging strategies to amplify them "and encouraged further theft of information and ... leaks."

                    "The Trump campaign publicly undermined the attribution of the hack-and-leak campaign to Russia and was indifferent to whether it and WikiLeaks were furthering a Russian election interference effort," the report added.

                    The committee could not establish the extent to which Trump campaign advisor Roger Stone had real inside access to WikiLeaks materials, the report said.
                    _____________
                    Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by surfgun View Post
                      Isnít Roseanne Barr into that Qanon theory mumbo jumbo?

                      But let me know wen the burn up a car dealership or loot up and down Rodeo Drive.
                      Oh please. You and I both know that Trump could murder someone in cold blood on Fifth Avenue in broad daylight and you'd still vote for him.

                      And Trump knows it too.

                      So why not just come out and say it?
                      Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

                      Comment


                      • Top, so Russia kept HRC from campaigning in the rust belt? Trump squeaked by and it has to do with the fact that HRC ran a lazy unorganized campaign. Had she bothered to show up she would have won. Its been 4 years and no one can point to any specific impacts that Russia had in terms of votes. So are you gonna yell China, China, China since the latest report says China is backing Biden?

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                        • Asty, you named 3 events that had nothing to do with legislative paralysis.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                            Top, so Russia kept HRC from campaigning in the rust belt?
                            I never said any such thing and you know it. In fact, I've got multiple posts since 2016 saying that she ran a shit campaign, but straw man noted.

                            Believe it or not, Clinton running a shit campaign, and the Trump Campaign being in bed with Russia are not mutually exclusive. Both are true.

                            To quote the (Republican-led) committee's report:

                            There was a "direct tie between senior Trump Campaign officials and the Russian intelligence services."

                            “The committee found that Manafort’s presence on the campaign and proximity to Trump created opportunities for Russian intelligence services to exert influence over, and acquire confidential information on the Trump campaign. Taken as a whole, Manafort’s high-level access and willingness to share information with individuals closely affiliated with Russian intelligence services…represented a grave counterintelligence threat.”

                            "While the GRU and WikiLeaks were releasing hacked documents, the Trump Campaign sought to maximize the impact of those materials to aid Trump's electoral prospects. To do so, the Trump Campaign took actions to obtain advance notice about WikiLeaks releases of Clinton emails; took steps to obtain inside information about the content of releases once WikiLeaks began to publish stolen information; created messaging strategies to promote and share the materials in anticipation of and following their release; and encouraged further theft of information and continued leaks. "

                            "Trump and senior Campaign officials sought to obtain advance information about WikiLeaks through Roger Stone. In spring 2016, prior to Assange's public announcements, Stone advised the Campaign that WikiLeaks would be releasing materials harmful to Clinton. Following the July 22 DNC release, Trump and the Campaign believed that Roger Stone had known of the release and had inside access to WikiLeaks, and repeatedly communicated with Stone about WikiLeaks throughout the summer and fall of 2016. Trump and other senior Campaign officials specifically directed Stone to obtain information about upcoming document releases relating to Clinton and report back. At their direction, Stone took action to gain inside knowledge for the Campaign and shared his purported knowledge directly with Trump and senior Campaign officials on multiple occasions. Trump and the Campaign believed that Stone had inside information and expressed satisfaction that Stone's information suggested more releases would be forthcoming."

                            "Trump and the Campaign continued to promote and disseminate the hacked WikiLeaks documents, even after the Office of the Director of National Intelligence [ODNI] and the Department of Homeland Security [DHS] released a joint statement officially attributing the hack-and-leak campaign to Russia as part of its interference in the U.S. presidential election. The Trump Campaign publicly undermined the attribution of the hack-and-leak campaign to Russia, and was indifferent to whether it and WikiLeaks were furthering a Russian election interference effort."


                            And, lest we forget, Donald Trump has also:

                            • Sided with Russia over the States in Helsinki
                            • Advocated for Russia to be in the G7
                            • Hasn't confronted Putin regarding the Russian bounties put on United States troops
                            Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

                            Comment


                            • I don't see how making it easier to pass legislation is going to moderate the crazy trends in US politics. Making it easier to pass legislation just ups the stakes, both losing and winning.

                              The lack of ability to pass anything isn't what's causing the crazy, it's the crazy that's causing the lack of ability to pass anything and the parties locking down to prevent compromise. I mean it's pretty obvious what you THINK you're going to accomplish: you think that by eliminating the filibuster you can get your preferred policy package passed, because moderate Democrats can push through legislation by allying with Bernie Sanders types, and this threat will force sufficient numbers of moderate Republicans to sign on to the bill to prevent passage of an even worse bill.

                              1. If you all have is a stick, don't be surprised when the stick gets used on you.
                              2. You really should learn the difference between a carrot and "if you promise to behave, I won't hit you with the stick."
                              3. You really should see that everyone who doesn't already agree with you realizes that you are just threatening to hit people with a stick.
                              4. You are not evaluating the dynamics correctly. It is far better for the GOP to become a permanent minority party under your plan: see #2. you are refusing political space to anyone who disagrees with you and refuse to compromise. They aren't going to get anything they want pass anyways, so it becomes more beneficial to become permanent opposition until the wind eventually blows against you (and it always does!) and then they get to use the stick on you.
                              5. Because of 4, you aren't going to get your preferred policy vision, and you are going to soon learn that "better something than nothing" is dumb and most of the time paralysis is a good thing.
                              6. You aren't going to be holding much of a stick much longer.

                              Also, the US isn't Poland. You can still get appointments and budgets passed with majority votes. The US passed TARP and it passed a stimulus bill and it did pass some Corona packages earlier this year even if right now it is deadlocked (which isn't a filibuster issue, it's a divided government issue). Not allowing all college grads to automatically finance their loans at under 4% and not granting amnesty to 12 million people who aren't legally here are not crises.

                              I would prefer the more moderate, boring, competent, compromising candidates to have more authority, but that's not going to happen when you decide to elevate junior Senators to the Presidency or Vice-Presidency because they are just so handsome, and it turns out they can't get shit done and finish out their terms being whiny bitches passing executive orders because they can't execute their vision.
                              "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

                              Comment


                              • z,

                                Asty, you named 3 events that had nothing to do with legislative paralysis.
                                I named three things which are -symptoms of legislative paralysis-. political violence is what happens when the legislature cannot do its job.

                                we saw this with political violence leading up to the Civil War as well.
                                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                                Comment

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