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The US 2020 Presidential Election

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  • Let me tell you that many in America had no issues with Germany in the 30s. No surprise since most were racist and anti-Semetic at the time. They are still here. I have always felt, since that point in time, that 1/3 of the voting public would vote for a fascist like populist. Many other countries have gone down the road so why not us? Those 1/3 would care less about the other 2/3, would feel they have it coming to them, and would turn a blind eye to people boarded onto boxcars. They are the ones to watch as socialist and communists have always been a small percentage of the American public, like less than 1%.
    there is a considerable amount of evidence for this, -even taking Trump out of the equation-.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2...ect-democracy/

    And in the U.S., a third of Republicans say a strong leader who can govern without interference from other branches of government is a good thing, compared with 20% of independents and 17% of Democrats.
    added all up, that's probably 25% of the populace right there.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    • Originally posted by astralis View Post
      there is a considerable amount of evidence for this, -even taking Trump out of the equation-.

      https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2...ect-democracy/



      added all up, that's probably 25% of the populace right there.
      Our history is rife with this hard number going back to the Loyalists who wanted the strong hand of the Crown, through a core of the Warhawk Party leading to the War of 1812, Polk's Legions, The American Firsters right through the Dixiecrats to today's Alt Right.
      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
      Mark Twain

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      • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
        Our history is rife with this hard number going back to the Loyalists who wanted the strong hand of the Crown, through a core of the Warhawk Party leading to the War of 1812, Polk's Legions, The American Firsters right through the Dixiecrats to today's Alt Right.
        Our experiment, even in the beginning, had those who wanted no part of it. Today is kind of looking like that. We have increasing inequality in wealth, partisan gridlock, and politicians who pander to the aggrieved. The only thing missing is political violence at this time. However, once you cross that line then people start to consider a strong man to rule and create order. No doubt one who pandered to the aggrieved to deal with the "others". Not that this is anything new as it is part and parcel of mankind therefore people have to be always on their toes regarding populists who continually rise up to take advantage.

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        • Originally posted by astralis View Post
          there is a considerable amount of evidence for this, -even taking Trump out of the equation-.

          https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2...ect-democracy/

          And in the U.S., a third of Republicans say a strong leader who can govern without interference from other branches of government is a good thing, compared with 20% of independents and 17% of Democrats.

          added all up, that's probably 25% of the populace right there.
          Would the results be a whole lot different if the poll was done in any other country? Especially one with a similar Presidential system as the US? I doubt it.

          Edit: That same survey seems to suggest this is common in other wealthy democracies as well.

          People, at least some of them do like and want strong leaders who can get things done. Especially if the "current" leader in power is someone they support. This poll was done in 2017 after Trump's election. If it had been done when Obama was in power and being stymied by Congressional Republicans at every step the numbers might very well have been the reverse (in terms of % of dems vs repubs who want a strong leader without anyone holding him back). And after watching the gridlock in Congress that fails to even pass a budget for the nation each year, forget about actually solving the issues facing it, you can't really blame the people for thinking this way. If anything I am surprised the numbers aren't higher.
          Last edited by Firestorm; 06 Aug 20,, 21:19.

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          • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
            IMO, he's absolutely correct and the numbers support him as well. Even with all that Donald Trump has done, with 4 years of him trampling all over the rule of law, ignoring the Constitution, flouting the rulings of the highest count of the land, and proclaiming his power is "total"....even with all that, he still has the solid support of 30-35% of the country.

            Pointing out the obvious isn't divisive. It's just pointing out the obvious.

            Also, the United States was "balkanized" from the very beginning, sometimes violently so.
            Speaking of ideas that got him elected and of which he implemented only a little,he's at~50%.His antics and Covid crisis etc... may have got him a loss of several percents.Which may be enough for the election.But the issue here is not whether Trump losses the election or not.The problem is guys calling 100 to 160 millions(roughly half to 3/4 of the Whites in US) people fascists(to tone down a bit from nazis) and most of the others agreeing.If you don't see why is this a problem,I'll spell it:because you don't negociate with Nazis,you make a coalition of the entire world,including commie regimes,you kill them by the tens of millions,you ruin their country and then you occupy it until they're no longer Nazis.
            Those who know don't speak
            He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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            • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
              Speaking of ideas that got him elected and of which he implemented only a little,he's at~50%.His antics and Covid crisis etc... may have got him a loss of several percents.Which may be enough for the election.But the issue here is not whether Trump losses the election or not.The problem is guys calling 100 to 160 millions(roughly half to 3/4 of the Whites in US) people fascists(to tone down a bit from nazis) and most of the others agreeing.If you don't see why is this a problem,I'll spell it:because you don't negociate with Nazis,you make a coalition of the entire world,including commie regimes,you kill them by the tens of millions,you ruin their country and then you occupy it until they're no longer Nazis.
              Violence.
              It’s not just for national security anymore ...?
              Trust me?
              I'm an economist!

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              • Voting for Donald Trump doesnt make you a fascist, even the second time. Iam sure lot of people will vote for any republican because thats just what they always do. Or they will just vote down the line on whoever they feel supports them on their single core issue like abortion.

                It's a mistake to discuss trump suppoters without discussing that nuance and americans risk a further breakdown in dialogue. There are two modes, conversation or violence, best choose conversation.

                Its a shame voters cant vote down the ballot for american presidential elections. That would open the election up for third party candidates and create competition, moderation and better incentives, it would be best to break the duopoly.

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                • Originally posted by tantalus View Post
                  Voting for Donald Trump doesnt make you a fascist, even the second time. Iam sure lot of people will vote for any republican because thats just what they always do. Or they will just vote down the line on whoever they feel supports them on their single core issue like abortion.
                  No, it doesn't make you a fascist. But it does make you comfortable with Trump's brand of authoritarianism. And his racism.

                  Originally posted by tantalus View Post
                  It's a mistake to discuss trump suppoters without discussing that nuance and americans risk a further breakdown in dialogue.
                  So far what I've heard from Trump's followers is:
                  • "He owns the libs"
                  • "He's the anti-lefty!"
                  • "I like his policies!"
                  • "I don't care about what Trump says, I care about what he does"


                  Originally posted by tantalus View Post
                  There are two modes, conversation or violence, best choose conversation.
                  I choose conversation. Trump's followers have promised -and carried out- violence and intimidation.

                  Originally posted by tantalus View Post
                  Its a shame voters cant vote down the ballot for american presidential elections. That would open the election up for third party candidates and create competition, moderation and better incentives, it would be best to break the duopoly.
                  Never happen, for the exact reasons that you stated.
                  TwentyFiveFortyFive

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                  • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                    The problem is guys calling 100 to 160 millions(roughly half to 3/4 of the Whites in US) people fascists(to tone down a bit from nazis) and most of the others agreeing.If you don't see why is this a problem,I'll spell it:because you don't negociate with Nazis,you make a coalition of the entire world,including commie regimes,you kill them by the tens of millions,you ruin their country and then you occupy it until they're no longer Nazis.
                    Not true, people may not like fascists but the world did not go to war with them until the Germans went on a genocidal imperial war of conquest, trying to achieve complete dominance over Europe and maybe even the world.

                    In neutral Spain fascism survived well into the 1970s; even Mussolini in the hypothetical scenario of not casting his lot with Hitler might have lived to a ripe old age with most of his North African empire intact.

                    Infact the Western democracies were desperate to reach a deal with Hitler well up to 1939, shunning the Soviets at every turn. It was only when the survival of both was at stake did they join hands.

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                    • That is beside the point.The point is these guys and the entire network opposing Trump considers his electoral base numbering in 100+ millions people as evil.
                      Those who know don't speak
                      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                      • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                        That is beside the point.The point is these guys and the entire network opposing Trump considers his electoral base numbering in 100+ millions people as evil.
                        1. Who are "these" guys?
                        2. Who is the "entire" network?
                        3. 100+ million is not possible. There are approximately 207,600,000eligable voters here. His base is roughly 43% reliable percent but not are all "hardcore to the bone" supporters.
                        4. Who said they were "evil"?

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                        • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                          1. Who are "these" guys?
                          2. Who is the "entire" network?
                          3. 100+ million is not possible. There are approximately 207,600,000eligable voters here. His base is roughly 43% reliable percent but not are all "hardcore to the bone" supporters.
                          4. Who said they were "evil"?
                          1.You,TH,DOR,Asty,right here,right on these pages.And on related threads.

                          2.Most of the media,most of the academia,every Dem voter,quite a good deal of the corporations dealing in social media,on top of my head.
                          3.He still got 50% for his agenda in 2016.That gives him 100 millions.If he gets elected in 2020,again is 100+ millions.
                          4.Are you playing stupid?You don’t call people racists and fascists and expect anyone to think you consider those folks anything but evil worthy of annihilation.
                          Those who know don't speak
                          He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                            4.Are you playing stupid?You don’t call people racists and fascists and expect anyone to think you consider those folks anything but evil worthy of annihilation.
                            I do agree with some posters on this board that an uncomfortably large section of the population (in most democracies) has borderline or outright fascist views. However, 100 million is way too high, I would probably put somewhere like half of Trump voters in this category, perhaps about 30-35 million voters. No one is calling them evil though.

                            I don't believe in refraining from calling out people for their racist or fascist views just because their feelings may be hurt or they are feeling threatened. Its not like they are going to face any danger personally if they lose an election.

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                            • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                              No, it doesn't make you a fascist. But it does make you comfortable with Trump's brand of authoritarianism. And his racism.
                              People often hear want they want to hear. My point is not to label voters for what they fail to think or realise, but for what they actually think or realise. Both reveal some truth, but the former reveals more, and leads to better conversation. People should focus more on the former for the electorate and the latter for the president.

                              Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                              So far what I've heard from Trump's followers is:
                              • "He owns the libs"
                              • "He's the anti-lefty!"
                              • "I like his policies!"
                              • "I don't care about what Trump says, I care about what he does"

                              .
                              Well this touches on what iam saying. Many trump voters are caught in a net of their own partiular world view, that ideology lacks inflexibility, and the means justifies the ends. if you believe some of the things they beleive then it logically may follow that that trump is an accepatable downside over the dems...

                              Originally posted by TopHatter View Post

                              I choose conversation. Trump's followers have promised -and carried out- violence and intimidation.

                              Never happen, for the exact reasons that you stated.
                              Well that is good and I believe you will find them. Somebody needs to eventually.

                              Some yes, but a minority surely. Never is a long time if you stay in conversation.

                              More broadly the right have definitely been left alienated by the quick advancement of social norms in the 20th century which has greatly enlarged the circle of equality for many groups (in and itself a great thing). Combined with cancel culture and identity politics this has made it difficult for differences in opinion to breath. While many forces are working in tandem this further heightens the risk of placing large swaths of the population in simplified brackets and backing people around the edges into those groups. Individuals than have fewer people to listen and talk to, especially as social media divides up and concentrates through its algorithms into what you only want to hear, digital islands. The fences need to be kept lower and the waters draine so people can freely move their opinions around and stay in conversation.

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                              • Originally posted by InExile View Post
                                Not true, people may not like fascists but the world did not go to war with them until the Germans went on a genocidal imperial war of conquest, trying to achieve complete dominance over Europe and maybe even the world.

                                In neutral Spain fascism survived well into the 1970s; even Mussolini in the hypothetical scenario of not casting his lot with Hitler might have lived to a ripe old age with most of his North African empire intact.

                                In fact the Western democracies were desperate to reach a deal with Hitler well up to 1939, shunning the Soviets at every turn. It was only when the survival of both was at stake did they join hands.
                                The main reasons Western Democracies dealt with and turned a blind eye to Hitler in the 1930s were 2 fold. Fascism was seen as bulwark against communism. Western democracies, dominated by free markets, were anathema to communism. Fascism was, incorrectly, deemed to be less severe and a logical counterweight to communism. Not necessarily true but that was the wide spread belief. As the world was ravaged by Depression fascism was seen as a way yo get back on our feet.

                                The other reason, especially in Western Europe, was populations wholesale wanted to avoid another round of bloodletting as was seen earlier in the Balkans up through 1918. Anything which avoided that, especially in the US, was seen as a better alternative.

                                But here in the US we tend not like Fascists a whole lot for a majority of the population. The delta is the hardcore 25-35% that currently support Fat Nixon.
                                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                                Mark Twain

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