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The US 2020 Presidential Election & Attempts To Overturn It

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  • GVChamp,

    The larger issue is that the Millennial/Zoomer consensus is fundamentally anti-liberal because it emphasizes emotional security and well-being while being stuck entirely inside of an echo chamber that constantly feeds itself more and more rage. This is not a good place to be in.
    that is emblematic of any extremist group.

    BTW, the most visible and by far the most broad expression of this is on the right. it started with talk radio, then Fox News, now the even more stupid OANN. this is how you get Comet Ping Pong, Q, 3%, not wearing a goddamn mask because it's a symbol of being a sheep.

    the reason why the extremists have taken over the right while it's significantly harder to do so on the left is the differing political coalitions. IE, Nancy Pelosi is the representative for San Francisco, but she holds relatively -moderate- views and can actually lead the House of Representatives because even in San Francisco, she crushes her lefty challenger by enormous margins.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post


      Well, a couple things. First, we don't see protests like this all the time. This is pretty unusual in the Great Moderation Era. But between social media, constantly telling people they live in a police state, and constantly telling people that black people (and specifically black people) are dying by the truckloads every day, people are going to radicalize. Lock them in their houses for months, and they are going to get REAL uneasy and will protest at the drop of a hat.
      There's also been a couple of utterly egregious cases of racial injustice the past few weeks. There was a Central Park birdwatcher who had the police called on him by an uppity middle-aged woman during a spat about dog-leashing, there was a black jogger who was clearly murdered by 2 white guys and the local government basically hushed it up, and then there was this. I am generally unsympathetic towards BLM, and even in the MN case I think these guys should probably walk, but these are all cases with clear right-and-wrong.
      The four in MN should walk? Do I read you right?

      As far as I am concerned the officer kneeling on Floyd's neck is guilty of manslaughter at the least and probably murder after Floyd tells him he can't breath and is then ignored only to be dead minutes later. The officer acted as Judge, Jury and Executioner as he casually pressed his knee on Floyd's neck and looked at the camera.
      Last edited by tbm3fan; 09 Jun 20,, 01:10.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
        There's also been a couple of utterly egregious cases of racial injustice the past few weeks. There was a Central Park birdwatcher who had the police called on him by an uppity middle-aged woman during a spat about dog-leashing, there was a black jogger who was clearly murdered by 2 white guys and the local government basically hushed it up, and then there was this. I am generally unsympathetic towards BLM, and even in the MN case I think these guys should probably walk, but these are all cases with clear right-and-wrong.
        Am I missing something? I thought the MN case was the most clear cut of the whole lot. It should have been obvious even to a 6 year old that the man was struggling to breathe and might die. But not to the cops apparently. And remember that despite the video coming out which shows the other 3 yahoos enjoying the scenery while their colleague slowly chokes a guy to death, they were not charged for a long time, till after the protests spread across the country.

        In Buffalo, when that old man was pushed to the ground and got his skull cracked on the pavement, the initial response from the police chief was that the man tripped. Then the video came out showing him getting pushed, and worse than that one cop stopping his colleague from trying to check on the man bleeding on the ground and telling him to march on.

        I am unsympathetic to violent protests too, but the police in the USA are sending a very dangerous message to the people - that they will always lie and protect their own. Only if the people come out on the streets and cause chaos is there a possibility of them speaking the truth and holding themselves accountable. If people get used to this there is no telling what will happen in the future. You always have radical actors like Antifa (who are basically commie revolutionaries in disguise) waiting to take advantage of this kind of sentiment amongst the populace, like they did to an extent even now.

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        • Chauvin was doing a legal and standard-practice hold designed to restrain a larger man who was struggling to get out of a police car and suspected of being intoxicated. He was communicating throughout much of the incident and the officers called for an ambulance when there was a concern for his well-being. Unless the state has additional evidence, 2nd degree murder is entirely unwarranted, especially since it requires malice. Involuntary manslaughter if the jury wants to convict to a lesser offense, would be appropriate.

          I don't think there is any reasonable guilty verdict that can be returned on 2 people who are acting to their best knowledge with practically no training.

          I am not particularly concerned about the incident in Buffalo. The way it ended is more "unfortunate" than "ill intent." That's a light shove by a guy putting no body weight into it in order to encourage a man to NOT confront the Riot Police. It ended up bad because, yeah, he is an old 75 year old lanky guy who has no balance. Another officer called in support, as far as I can tell from the video.


          The shooting of a jogger is really damn clear cut, and the woman filing a false police report against a black man she doesn't like is really damn clear cut, because these are both clearly on video and acting outside any reasonable behavior. This is not the case for any of the officers.
          "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

          Comment


          • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
            Chauvin was doing a legal and standard-practice hold designed to restrain a larger man who was struggling to get out of a police car and suspected of being intoxicated. He was communicating throughout much of the incident and the officers called for an ambulance when there was a concern for his well-being. Unless the state has additional evidence, 2nd degree murder is entirely unwarranted, especially since it requires malice. Involuntary manslaughter if the jury wants to convict to a lesser offense, would be appropriate.

            I don't think there is any reasonable guilty verdict that can be returned on 2 people who are acting to their best knowledge with practically no training.
            He could have used his brain and backed off which he didn't. To me that moves it into malice and a total disregard of the person in custody. One now has to wonder how many blacks, that have been killed with the excuse of resisting arrest, were really resisting arrest. We only have the officers words and we pretty much have always known officers will lie and get away with it. Get away with it for what a hundred years. This here is a classic example of white privilege.

            We have a man here who was sitting in his car when the police rolled up. Why? A store owner accused him of trying to use a counterfeit $20 bill. First, does the store owner really know what he is talking about in regards to a counterfeit bill? Next what exactly did the store owner tell police as I would really like to hear that. Was it some man, some black man, some sob black man which would set the tone just like the woman dog walker tried to set. Why was the way he was treated different from a white man who just posted his experience spending an unknown to him counterfeit bill. Worlds apart and yet not since there have been several commission reports over the last 100 years that point out this bias exactly. Yet nothing is ever done and the police have the same viewpoint today that they had 100+ years ago in how to treat blacks in the north. The south rarely killed them as they were more interested in making all criminals, for any little thing, so they could be impressed into chain gangs for cheap exploitable labor.

            Floyd's situation, like many in the black community, didn't require a heavy handed police response especially when blacks don't trust the police. This wasn't a serious crime. A system like Eugene Oregon has called Cahoots would have actually done a better job and is precisely what is needed many times. As it stands now I would convict this officer and send him to jail. He is not omnipotent. You see I too am biased against police and their ulterior motives from my experience with them. Oakland Police, yes that Oakland, once stopped me for the bullshit reason of not signaling a right turn. Became obvious where they asked for my ID, no registration, and the passengers ID. The passenger at the time was my black girlfriend in 1986-87. They assumed she was a prostitute. So yeah I am stilled pissed when I think about it and their pre-existing ideas that populate their brains.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by astralis View Post
              Oracle,
              and what is the viewership of videos where people are arrested peacefully?
              TBH, I didn't see much videos where people are arrested peacefully. These videos come to my YT feed, part of current affairs.

              part of the rage behind the George Floyd protests is because Floyd -didn't- resist, and he was murdered by the police. and the only reason why this came to light was because someone filmed it-- and even then, the police tried to lie truth out of creation, first by claiming he was resisting arrest, and then when that was proven to be a lie, smearing his background.

              same thing with Ahmaud Arbery. the police took no action for months following the murder; when the video of the murder came to light, the police made arrests within hours.
              I know, and this sucks, particularly when it's US. Your police is way more deadly armed than the armed forces of many 3rd world countries. Why should the police have anything more than a Glock is beyond my understanding.

              it shouldn't take video evidence and public humiliation to make the police do their work professionally.
              Agreed. This is everywhere. The situation in India is worse than that. Even with proof, people have to run from pillar to post, and still don't justice.

              too many cases of where the police have behaved badly, lied about the circumstances of the crime or the arrest. we're seeing that -right now- with the number of police getting fired for misuse of force during the protests.

              even worse, there are times when police are not held accountable for their actions at all. the shooting of Bijan Ghaisar comes to mind. the Park Police and FBI have refused to say ANYTHING about the case, despite the DC Congressional representative, two Virginia Senators, the Chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, and a VA Representative all leaning on the FBI to provide information!
              How to fix these IDK. You all have to define which path your country should take. There should be no place for racism in the 21st century.

              every country has its engrained issues. racism, systematic and institutional racism, is one of them in the US.
              We have it too, so I don't think Americans need any lecture on this. Some of your media and organisations need some spanking though. I sometimes think what have the gays done, that in some 1st world countries they are discriminated. Just 2 people who want to be together.

              it was only 50 years ago that -legal- racism came mostly to an end at the federal level, and years after that at the state level. cultural and institutional racism to this day.

              red-lining, for instance.
              This is very bad. This ensures the poor remains poor forever.

              i don't like the looting either, but I also understand the rage behind it, given our screwed up legal system where cops who murder people get re-hired to get a pension .

              and our political system? guess when the first federal anti-lynching law was proposed in the US.

              1900.

              there have been 200 anti-lynching bills proposed through Congress since that time.

              it's now 2020 and a federal anti-lynching bill still has not passed.

              so yes, I don't like the looting either. but the real travesty, the far worse issue, is that black people are getting killed by agents of the state at insanely high rates, and often they have little recourse in a court of law.
              I understand the rage. Don't know what to comment. A pandemic is ongoing. People should not gather in the 10s. When they riot and loot, the far-right gives it a color that doesn't behove what the protest is about. Trump calling the National Guard as the first choice was wrong. His tweets are wrong. America is so divided. It's not my country, I still feel uncomfortable.

              How can a person wanting to be the POTUS say Mexicans are rapists and criminals. This is the view of the far-right I suppose.
              Last edited by Oracle; 09 Jun 20,, 14:15.
              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                Eric,

                What is puzzling about the Bijan Ghaisar case is this kind of behavior is not normal for the Park Police. Just doesn't fit their normal method of operations.
                I don't know if Park Police are any different, but way too many cases I've read, people dying from police excesses. It should not end with civilians dying.
                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                Comment


                • George Floyd: Minneapolis council pledges to dismantle police department

                  This is not good. Acknowledge there is an issue, fix the system, there's no need to abolish it.
                  Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                  Comment


                  • Maybe a program like Cahoots would be better, but that's not what exists. The relevant questions are what was the training and what was the instruction regarding use of force, along with the relevant statutes.

                    Officers needing more oversight? Yeah, sure, that's totally reasonable, but that doesn't mean what you end up with is going be some sort of utopia. Any attempts to make it said utopia are probably going to end in tears, because ultimately people are victimized by criminals than they ever will be by police, and that's only going to increase if you sabotage your relationship with said police.
                    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                      Chauvin was doing a legal and standard-practice hold designed to restrain a larger man who was struggling to get out of a police car and suspected of being intoxicated. He was communicating throughout much of the incident and the officers called for an ambulance when there was a concern for his well-being. Unless the state has additional evidence, 2nd degree murder is entirely unwarranted, especially since it requires malice. Involuntary manslaughter if the jury wants to convict to a lesser offense, would be appropriate.

                      I don't think there is any reasonable guilty verdict that can be returned on 2 people who are acting to their best knowledge with practically no training.
                      You didn't think it was unprofessional ? Floyd was motionless after 5 minutes

                      What was the harm in getting off his neck at that point.

                      As for legal, yeah, been the case since 2012 from what i understood and used over four hundred times since in Minneapolis.

                      It isn't the hold that strick me as excessive but the duration it went on for given no apparent threat. He didn't need to die.

                      We don't even know why the hold was used. The heavily redacted bodycam footage released by the Park police was a joke, people will think there are these strange black rectangles walking around in that city.

                      The security cam footage showed no resisting the arrest. Then he is walked off to the car, and they are trying to get him into the car and he falls down and that was it. Next we know there are these three cops pinning him down.

                      The guy was a bouncer and twice the size of each of them. In a free fight he'd have knocked them over easy.
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 09 Jun 20,, 16:07.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                        Chauvin was doing a legal and standard-practice hold designed to restrain a larger man who was struggling to get out of a police car and suspected of being intoxicated.
                        In what department?

                        The use of knee or leg along the upper back is allowed but I have seen nowhere nor heard any police department say that kneeling across the neck is an authorized move.
                        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                        Mark Twain

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                        • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                          In what department?

                          The use of knee or leg along the upper back is allowed but I have seen nowhere nor heard any police department say that kneeling across the neck is an authorized move.
                          In Minneapolis

                          https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/02/u...nvs/index.html

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                            I don't know if Park Police are any different, but way too many cases I've read, people dying from police excesses. It should not end with civilians dying.
                            80% of the crimes committed on blacks are done by blacks. Who do you think the black victims goto for help? As bad as Floyd is (8 friggin cops on one perp, you would think one of them would be watching how the perp is doing if only to see he isn't bleeding COVID all over them), the streets ain't running blood by cop murders.

                            The riots for the most part are controlled. You don't want to see what happens when the police ain't there.
                            Chimo

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                              I don't know if Park Police are any different, but way too many cases I've read, people dying from police excesses. It should not end with civilians dying.
                              USPP have jurisdiction over all National Park Service sites in DC area, New York & San Francisco. The National Park Service administers all the federal parks and monuments in the US. Much of DC is federal monument and open spaces....the Mall and all the buildings and monuments around it leap to mind. The George Washington Parkway is an NPS road which parallels the Potomac River on the Virginia side from Great Fall south to Mount Vernon.

                              While there have been some instances of police issues you normally hear of the USPP for a positive...reactions to 9-11, the rescue of personnel from a plane crash in the Potomac, etc.

                              I don't understand the reticence in this case.
                              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                              Mark Twain

                              Comment


                              • When I first read about this, and for some time, I mis-read the timing to be 9 seconds. Horrible. The 2 officers should be prosecuted for murder, given life sentences without any chance of parole. Make an example of them, so that in future officers adopt a more responsible approach.
                                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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