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The US 2020 Presidential Election

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  • TopHatter
    replied
    Trump goes out with a whimper and a tweet. It was always going to be that way
    The end, for Donald Trump, has begun.

    It came just as it had to, with that now all-too familiar mobile phone Twitter notification.

    “In the best interest of our Country, I am recommending that Emily and her team do what needs to be done with regard to initial protocols, and have told my team to do the same,” Mr Trump tweeted, referring to GSA Administrator Emily Murphy, a loyalist who had been keeping the keys to Joe Biden’s transition under lock and key.

    The outgoing president likely will never concede he lost to Mr Biden, now more officially the president-elect than at any point in the two weeks since he was projected the winner of a bitter fight with Mr Trump.

    It’s just not in his personality, which has been so analysed and diagnosed by mental health experts, journalists, relatives and political observers. There’s little remaining question whether the 45th president has a massive ego, a willingness to bend the truth, and a stubborn insistence to put his own interests above even an entire country.

    All three are true.


    Truth feels like a strange thing now, after four years under a president who spewed falsehoods like a firehose.

    He had uttered or tweeted 22,247 statements the Washington Post’s fact checker staff called “errants” just two weeks before Election Day, a figure that no doubt climbed again during his blitz of rallies in the days just before 3 November.

    But by Monday evening, there was one truth that not even this former reality show host who so often was angered by realities he chose to ignore or revise – both in his own mind and on the public stage.

    When Michigan election officials certified election results there that showed Mr Biden winning the state and its 16 electoral votes, it likely ended Mr Trump’s longshot bid to have hundreds of thousands of ballots invalidated in several key battleground states.

    With Pennsylvania expected to certify its results in Mr Biden’s favour in the coming days, the door has all but finally closed on the president’s unprecedented attempt to cling to power from a White House residence he soon will vacate.

    Closing with it will be one of the most chaotic, scandal-plagued eras in American political history. What’s next for Mr Trump is as unclear as when he will walk out of the executive mansion for the final time. But Trumpism will live on.

    Several potential 2024 GOP presidential primary combatants already are jockeying for as large a slice of his conservative base as they can get.

    Nikki Haley, the Indian-American former governor of South Carolina who was his first ambassador to the United Nations, wasted little time in going full coronavirus sceptic. As she eyes a White House bid, she weighed in on a Covid college football brouhaha from the weekend.

    “Florida State, whether you lose today or a few days from now won’t matter. Get it over with already. Stop stalling. #GoTigers @ClemsonFB,” she tweeted after the struggling Sunshine State programme cancelled its meeting with the defending national champions after a backup Tiger offensive lineman showed Covid-like symptoms the night before their scheduled noon Saturday game.

    Even before Mr Trump cleared Ms Murphy to toss Mr Biden and his transition team the keys that unlock reams of intelligence and coronavirus-related data they will need to take over on 20 January, Ms Haley was elbowing the president out of the MAGA lane.

    A whimper
    The truth he ultimately could not ignore came into further focus that evening, when US District Judge Matthew Brann tossed the Trump campaign’s suit claiming widespread voter fraud in Pennsylvania. Mr Brann delivered a fiery decision, writing the Trump team presented little more than “strained legal arguments without merit and speculative accusations.

    The federal judge, despite the president and his legal team continuing to promise to release some, added the claims were "unsupported by evidence."

    "In the United States of America, this cannot justify the disenfranchisement of a single voter, let alone all the voters of its sixth most populated state,” Judge Brann wrote. “Our people, laws, and institutions demand more.”

    One can quibble with the judge’s final point. After all, more people voted for Mr Trump this time than when he shocked the world by defeating former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

    Over 10m more, in fact. A large part of the population (73.8m) not only has never demanded more of Donald John Trump – they just wanted more Donald John Trump. But even more (79.8m) did demand more, and voted for his Democratic opponent, who now faces the daunting task of governing a bitterly and deeply divided country that has been so warped by the Trump era.

    But how Mr Biden does that is for another day. All eyes, for two more months, will remain on the showman in chief – even if, like the weeks since Election Day, we don’t actually see him that often.

    For all the worries among Democrats and anti-Trump Republicans about a Constitutional crisis or even a coup d’etat, those who have watched this president so closely knew it would be this way.

    In the end, the president who roared and accused and insulted for four years like a lion seemingly at war with every creature in his kingdom went out with a mere whimper.
    ___________


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  • InExile
    replied
    Originally posted by JRT View Post

    No. Regardless that this election cycle's processes may be messier than usual, the election processes and inauguration are on track and on schedule. There is no real Constitutional crisis in this. The structure is resilient. The balance of power exists. Trump is exercising his rights, however frivolous the efforts.

    Determination will be formalized on January 06 2021, and formal transition will begin then if not before. Have no doubt that Biden will be inaugurated as POTUS at noon on January 20, and simultaneously Trump will become another ex-POTUS without any federal authority.

    Beyond Inaugeration Day, Donald J Trump's personality cult of delusioned anti-masker Red-Hatted Klan of Cracked Pots may remain active in their politics and nonviolent protests, exercising their constitutional rights. If any of it extends into seditious conspiracies and/or sedicious acts of violence, then they may be prosecuted for that, as sedition is a felony Federal offense punishable by fines and incarceration in Federal prison.
    I agree that Biden being inaugurated on the 20th of January is by far the most likely outcome. However, the precedent of challenging the results of an election has been set and might be tried again in the future by someone far more competent and forceful than Trump.

    On the other hand, Trump is an uniquely flawed individual, with a fragile ego that can never admit defeat, and his attempts to overturn the election seem generally frivolous and mostly laughable than a serious attempt to threaten democracy. So it might not be a precedent that future wannabe authoritarians or populists may want to emulate.

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  • JRT
    replied
    Originally posted by NPR_News

    Trump Is Running Out Of Time As Key States Set To Certify That Biden Won

    23 November 2020
    by Domenico Montanaro

    Most Republicans in Congress have been reluctant to suggest that President Trump concede the presidential election to Democrat Joe Biden. They argue that it's best to let Trump's expend his legal options before they apply too much pressure.

    That pressure has been building and it could be about to go bust this week, with key states certifying the vote totals and making their results official.

    Michigan and Pennsylvania are set to do so Monday, and Nevada will on Tuesday. Arizona and Wisconsin have certification deadlines next week.

    Biden is ahead by more than 155,000 votes in Michigan, by more than 81,000 in Pennsylvania and by more than 33,000 in Nevada.

    Pennsylvania Republican Sen. Pat Toomey has called on Trump to accept the result.

    "President Trump has exhausted all plausible legal options to challenge the result of the presidential race in Pennsylvania," Toomey said in a statement responding to a Trump campaign loss in Pennsylvania federal court Saturday.

    The retiring senator went on to call Biden president-elect and noted that he was disappointed in the outcome, but said it was time to move on so Trump could preserve what he sees as a legacy of achievements in office.

    "To ensure that he is remembered for these outstanding accomplishments, and to help unify our country, President Trump should accept the outcome of the election and facilitate the presidential transition process," Toomey wrote.

    Republican Chris Christie, who has been close to Trump, was more blunt on Sunday, as the former New Jersey governor is known to be.

    "If you have got the evidence of fraud, present it," Christie said on ABC. "Quite frankly, the conduct of the president's legal team has been a national embarrassment."

    With Biden winning 306 electoral votes, expanding his margins in key states since Election Day (he now holds a lead of more than 6 million in the national popular vote), and Trump losing court case after court case, Toomey, Christie and a handful of other prominent Republicans have been calling on Trump to end his attempts to overturn the results of the election and start working with the Biden transition team.

    Those calls could grow louder this week after the expected certifications in those three key states will all but shut off any path of Trump getting the electoral votes needed to retain the presidency.

    Here's the latest in each state:

    Pennsylvania

    After a judge said the Trump legal team did not show "factual proof of rampant corruption" and dismissed the Trump campaign's attempts to block certification, the campaign is appealing.

    In his opinion dismissing Trump's case — argued by Rudy Giuliani, who struggled in his first appearance in court in decades — Judge Matthew Brann, a Republican, wrote:

    "In the United States of America, this cannot justify the disenfranchisement of a single voter, let alone all the voters of its sixth most populated state. Our people, laws, and institutions demand more."

    Individual counties must certify their results to the secretary of state by Monday, and then she makes her own certification.

    Michigan

    WKAR's Abigail Censky reports: At the Michigan Board of State Canvassers meeting on Monday, two Democrats and two Republicans will meet to certify the results of Michigan's election. Unofficial results from all 83 counties have already been certified at the county level.

    Despite Republicans' continued alarm bells about election irregularities, lawsuits have been thrown out or withdrawn, and state and local election officials, including a Friday report from the state's Bureau of Elections, prove Michigan's election was secure.

    The president has also been applying pressure to state lawmakers to either try and not certify the results or to install electors loyal to Trump. On Thursday, the president summoned senior Republicans in Michigan's state legislature to the White House.

    But those lawmakers, Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey and Michigan House Speaker Lee Chatfield, said after the meeting that they see no reason for the outcome not to match the vote — with Biden winning.

    "We have not yet been made aware of any information that would change the outcome of the election in Michigan," they said in a joint statement, "and, as legislative leaders, we will follow the law and follow the normal process regarding Michigan's electors, just as we have said throughout this election."

    Nevada

    An attempt to stop Nevada's certification, brought by failed Republican Senate candidate Sharron Angle, was thrown out Friday.

    Angle's group, the Election Integrity Project, claimed that some 1,400 votes cast were done for people who'd actually moved to California and registered to vote there, and that about 8,000 ballots were mailed to people who had not voted in a decade, which is against Nevada law.

    Biden won the state by more than 33,000 votes.

    "The civil remedy of throwing out an election is just a shocking ask," District Court Judge Gloria Sturman told the group's attorney. "You are asking me to throw out 1.4 million votes on the chance that somewhere between 250 and 8,000 people should not have voted."

    What's next?

    The following week sees two more key states certify their results: Arizona on Nov. 30 and Wisconsin on Dec. 1. Biden won both states narrowly.

    The Trump campaign requested a recount in two heavily Democratic-leaning counties that put Biden over the top in Wisconsin. But election officials in the state are complaining that Trump campaign observers are obstructing and slowing down the recount from actually happening, "in some instances by objecting to every ballot tabulators pulled to count," the Associated Press reports.

    States are set to finalize their electors on Dec. 8, then electors will cast votes in state capitols Dec. 14. Those votes will be received by Vice President Pence on Dec. 23, and then Congress tallies them Jan. 6 before Biden is inaugurated Jan. 20.

    The Trump campaign may try to drag this out as long as possible, filing in many cases frivolous challenges and appeals. But pressure this week will likely only build on those around him to abandon Trump or convince him to give up what appears to be an even more futile fight as the days go on.

    .

    ...

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  • JRT
    replied
    Originally posted by statquo View Post
    It's actually really sad to see these types of resources and time be wasted on this. It's not going to change anything.
    No argument that the resources could be put to better use, but the resources are not really being wasted, as money is changing hands and the related efforts generate some added ecomonic activity (however small), providing some stimululous to the economy.

    Last edited by JRT; 23 Nov 20,, 19:08.

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  • statquo
    replied
    It's fun to watch a conspiracy theory play out in real life. I'm sure all of those dots connected on whatever message forum or youtube video they watched, but in real life you need actual proof, with actual arguments, with actual evidence. It's actually really sad to see these types of resources and time be wasted on this. It's not going to change anything. Conspiracy theorists use circular arguments that don't end. Disappointed to see the US have these people empowered. Smh. This wasn't the change we expected.

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  • TopHatter
    replied
    Wisconsin officials: Trump observers obstructing recount

    MILWAUKEE (AP) — Election officials in Wisconsin’s largest county accused observers for President Donald Trump on Saturday of seeking to obstruct a recount of the presidential results, in some instances by objecting to every ballot tabulators pulled to count.

    Trump requested the recount in Milwaukee and Dane counties, both heavily liberal, in hopes of undoing Democrat Joe Biden's victory by about 20,600 votes. With no precedent for a recount reversing such a large margin, Trump's strategy is widely seen as aimed at an eventual court challenge, part of a push in key states to undo his election loss.

    A steady stream of Republican complaints in Milwaukee was putting the recount far behind schedule, county clerk George Christenson said. He said many Trump observers were breaking rules by constantly interrupting vote counters with questions and comments.

    “That’s unacceptable,” he said. He said some of the Trump observers “clearly don't know what they are doing.”


    Tim Posnanski, a county election commissioner, told his fellow commissioners there appeared to be two Trump representatives at some tables where tabulators were counting ballots, violating rules that call for one observer from each campaign per table. Posnanski said some Trump representatives seemed to be posing as independents.

    At one recount table, a Trump observer objected to every ballot that tabulators pulled from a bag simply because they were folded, election officials told the panel.

    Posnanski called it “prima facie evidence of bad faith by the Trump campaign.” He added later: “I want to know what is going on and why there continues to be obstruction.”


    Joe Voiland, a lawyer speaking to commission members on behalf of the Trump campaign, denied his side was acting in bad faith.

    “I want to get to the point of dialing everything down … and not yelling at each other,” Voiland said.

    At least one Trump observer was escorted out of the building by sheriff’s deputies Saturday after pushing an election official who had lifted her coat from an observer chair. Another Trump observer was removed Friday for not wearing a face mask properly as required.

    Trump paid $3 million, as required by state law, for the partial recount that began Friday and must conclude by Dec. 1.

    His team is seeking to disqualify ballots where election clerks filled in missing address information on the certification envelope where the ballot is inserted, even though the practice has long been accepted in Wisconsin.

    The campaign also alleges thousands of absentee ballots don't have proper written paperwork, and that some absentee voters improperly declared themselves “indefinitely confined," a status that allows them to receive a ballot without photo ID. Those challenges were being rejected.

    There have been at least 31 recounts in statewide elections in the U.S. since the most famous one in Florida’s presidential election in 2000. The recounts changed the outcome of three races. All three were decided by hundreds of votes, not thousands.
    ____________

    The stench of desperation is getting stronger...

    But! As long as Trump has other people's money to spend, he'll fight this down to the last cult member's penny

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  • JRT
    replied
    Originally posted by InExile View Post
    My reading of the history of the Roman Republic reminds of the period of Tiberius Gracchus. Until then, the Roman Republic had functioned remarkably well for hundreds of years, even at times of great crisis due to the restraint shown by its leaders and their willingness to follow established norms and their willingness to cede power at the end of their term. Gracchus used means like mob violence to intimidate political opponents, broke with established norms by trying to run for Tribune a second time in violation of established principles. He paved the way for subsequent leaders like Marius, Sulla and Caesar, which finally led to the end of the Republic about 90 years later.

    Its hard not to think that a similar precedent has just been established for the US.
    No. Regardless that this election cycle's processes may be messier than usual, the election processes and inauguration are on track and on schedule. There is no real Constitutional crisis in this. The structure is resilient. The balance of power exists. Trump is exercising his rights, however frivolous the efforts.

    Determination will be formalized on January 06 2021, and formal transition will begin then if not before. Have no doubt that Biden will be inaugurated as POTUS at noon on January 20, and simultaneously Trump will become another ex-POTUS without any federal authority.

    Beyond Inaugeration Day, Donald J Trump's personality cult of delusioned anti-masker Red-Hatted Klan of Cracked Pots may remain active in their politics and nonviolent protests, exercising their constitutional rights. If any of it extends into seditious conspiracies and/or sedicious acts of violence, then they may be prosecuted for that, as sedition is a felony Federal offense punishable by fines and incarceration in Federal prison.
    Last edited by JRT; 22 Nov 20,, 14:42.

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  • InExile
    replied
    My reading of the history of the Roman Republic reminds of the period of Tiberius Gracchus. Until then, the Roman Republic had functioned remarkably well for hundreds of years, even at times of great crisis due to the restraint shown by its leaders and their willingness to follow established norms and their willingness to cede power at the end of their term. Gracchus used means like mob violence to intimidate political opponents, broke with established norms by trying to run for Tribune a second time in violation of established principles. He paved the way for subsequent leaders like Marius, Sulla and Caesar, which finally led to the end of the Republic about 90 years later.

    Its hard not to think that a similar precedent has just been established for the US.
    Last edited by InExile; 22 Nov 20,, 08:27.

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  • InExile
    replied
    Originally posted by GVChamp View Post

    Trump being a more immediate threat is less concerning than lying in bed with the bigger, long-term threat. It's like allowing the Soviet Union to set up nuclear missiles in Mexico because you're worried about Pancho Villa, when Pancho Villa is basically guaranteed to get hit by a drone-strike next month anyways. If you disagree, that's fine, that's your choice.
    I grant that over the past 4 years Trump has been more about talking crazy stuff than doing something catastrophic. Be it withdrawing from NATO, threatening a nuclear war with Kim, launching a trade war with China or forcing Mexico to pay for a wall, Trump has generally backed down from a self initiated crisis before it escalated beyond a point. Besides his bungling on COVID which may have cost a 100,000 excess deaths as compared to a 'normal' President, the US and the world has not faced a catastrophe due to Trump.

    On the other hand losing a Presidential election and joining the small group of one term Presidents is a kind of public humiliation that Trump has never faced until now and probably who's ego cannot handle. His actions the past few weeks show that he would not hesitate to overturn the election if he could even if it means causing the worst constitutional crisis in almost 150 years.

    The only question is whether enough Republican officials will aid him in this effort. Based on recent events, like the Republican leaders in Michigan saying they wont replace the electors; and we can probably expect folks like Romney and Collins to hold against this in the Senate, I think the chances of Trump succeeding are extremely low. But the precedent of an all out attack on a democratic election has been set; and American democracy is weaker for it.
    Last edited by InExile; 22 Nov 20,, 05:30.

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  • DOR
    replied
    • Biden is about as far from the far left as Trump is from rational, moderate, presidential behavior.
    • There is no Antifa representation on the ticket, and there won't be any in the Biden Administration.
    • Socialism, in American political usage, is a dog whistle and nothing more. Even Bernie Sanders isn't a true Socialist.
    • Saddest of all, those who brought Trump to power and then let him get away with the worst crimes ever seen in an American presidency, cannot admit their mistake.

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  • astralis
    replied
    Trump can do and believe what he likes, but at a certain point you are both duty-bound and incentivized to say "No." Continuing to coddle Trump's election temper-tantrum is damaging, both to the republic and the party.
    bruh I hate to break it to you but "continuing to coddle Trump's xxx temper-tantrum" has been the GOP platform for the last 4 years.

    look at Georgia now, the GOP apparatus is afraid of even trotting out the old "we can't elect two Dem Senators because we need a check on Biden/Harris" argument because the implications there offends Trump, lol...

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  • tbm3fan
    replied
    Originally posted by GVChamp View Post


    Meanwhile the Far Left is moving towards their nightmare dystopia even faster than I would've previously guessed, but exactly in the direction that I would've guessed.
    LMAO once again. You crack me up with the with your dire predictions of the boogey man far left. So predictable from you. Of course the far right, in far more greater numbers than the far left, and certainly far heavier armed, are not a problem. Like I said you are farther right, but not the crazy type, then even you realize even as your words say otherwise.

    By the way is this going to become a regular event from you ranking right up there with Linus and the Great Pumpkin which also never showed up?

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  • TopHatter
    replied
    Tucker Carlson claims Trump's attorney 'got angry' when pressed for evidence of voter fraud

    On Tucker Carlson Tonight Thursday, rather than push the idea of a fraudulent presidential election, Carlson called out one of President Trump’s attorneys, Sidney Powell, for failing to provide evidence of fraud. Powell has repeatedly claimed that voting machines were rigged in favor of Joe Biden, and that Trump actually won the election by millions of votes. In a bizarre press conference earlier in the day, Powell even claimed that deceased Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, who died in 2013, had something to do with the rigging of the machines. Carlson said that he has tried on numerous occasions to get Powell to appear on the show and provide evidence backing up her claims, but to no avail.

    “We took Sidney Powell seriously. We had no intention of fighting with her, we’ve always respected her work,” Carlson said. “We simply wanted to see the details. How could you not want to see them? So we invited Sidney Powell on the show. We would have given her the whole hour. We would have given her the entire week, actually, and listened quietly the whole time at rapt attention. That’s a big story. But she never sent us any evidence despite a lot of requests, polite requests. Not a page. When we kept pressing, she got angry and told us to stop contacting her.”

    In stark contrast to Powell’s claims, officials at the Department of Homeland Security released a statement saying that the 2020 presidential election was the most secure in U.S. history. According to Carlson, despite Powell’s continued insistence that the machines were rigged, she has yet to provide evidence of such, even to the Trump campaign.

    “We checked with others around the Trump campaign, people in positions of authority, they told us Powell has never given them any evidence either, nor did she provide any today at the press conference,” Carlson said. “Powell did say that electronic voting is dangerous, and she’s right, we’re with her there. But she never demonstrated that a single actual vote was moved illegitimately by software from one candidate to another. Not one.”

    Powell responded to Carlson’s segment by telling him to conduct his own investigation.
    ________

    I see 'ol Tucker is experiencing those "best people" that Trump hires lol.

    Cultists gonna cult I guess.

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  • TopHatter
    replied
    Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
    Trump is leaving office in Jan 2021 because the scenario you painted out is unlikely to happen. The stink of losing is rank and he is unlikely to win nomination in 2024, let alone win another election. Never say never with Trump, but he's extremely unlikely to hold the office of the Presidency ever again. He came in, held if for 4 years, got chewed up and spat out. Nothing really surprising there.
    Man, I dunno about that. If Trump had lost millions or tens of millions of voters versus 2016, then I'd say your prediction is 100% accurate. But he didn't. Cult45 is alive, well and flourishing.

    Certainly the next 4 years could see Trump reduced to an pathetic punchline like Sarah Palin, and nothing would make me happier. But I doubt that's gonna happen. Donald Trump makes Jim Jones look like a bush league amateur.

    Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
    Trump can do and believe what he likes, but at a certain point you are both duty-bound and incentivized to say "No." Continuing to coddle Trump's election temper-tantrum is damaging, both to the republic and the party.

    No one really wants to alienate the Trump voters and run a risk of a primary. But shit like that happens in politics. If you are a big name like Cruz, you can always toss your hat back into the ring on the next cycle. That's both the morally right and politically right decision to make.
    Did you really just use the term "morally right" to describe the Republican Party? After the last 4 years and especially the last several weeks? And "duty-bound"??

    Leave a comment:


  • GVChamp
    replied
    Originally posted by InExile View Post
    Today has seen a dangerous escalation with Trump and his legal team led by Giuliani indicating that their goal is to persuade the Republican legislators of several battleground states to invalidate the popular vote and send a slate of Republican electors to Congress. While the chances of this succeeding maybe low, in the event that it does we are looking at a repeat of the crisis of 1876 in the best case scenario. This is a deliberate attack on the foundations of democracy.

    I find it pretty amazing that many center right Americans, some on this forum, who say that while Trump is bad, the far left, Antifa, BLM, stacking the courts etc are a far greater threat.......
    Trump is leaving office in Jan 2021 because the scenario you painted out is unlikely to happen. The stink of losing is rank and he is unlikely to win nomination in 2024, let alone win another election. Never say never with Trump, but he's extremely unlikely to hold the office of the Presidency ever again. He came in, held if for 4 years, got chewed up and spat out. Nothing really surprising there.

    Meanwhile the Far Left is moving towards their nightmare dystopia even faster than I would've previously guessed, but exactly in the direction that I would've guessed.

    Only major surprise of the last 4 years is that Western governments, broadly speaking, are even more comically incompetent than I previously thought. Along with our ability to tolerate both a nuclear North Korea and a China basically engaged in ethnic cleansing.

    Trump being a more immediate threat is less concerning than lying in bed with the bigger, long-term threat. It's like allowing the Soviet Union to set up nuclear missiles in Mexico because you're worried about Pancho Villa, when Pancho Villa is basically guaranteed to get hit by a drone-strike next month anyways. If you disagree, that's fine, that's your choice.

    From whatever I have read of President Trump - he can't digest loss. Can't take a NO. He has to win always. So he's doing what he's doing. OTOH, I think he suffers from a lot of insecurity or ADHD, or a mix of both. Don't know why, but his ridiculous statements have come long before he became President. He's rich, so he thinks he can bend the rules. Maybe he never had a real friend, or someone close to guide him, so he kept doing things to get attention. When he did not get the desired attention, he did all those things again. It happens to rich kids, that other people get close only to milk them. He's certainly not dumb. He became President by catering to the fringe right groups, so he's kept his attack intact on the left. Whatever he is doing now, he knows he's lost. He's doing it to show his support base that he tried, but the left created obstacles and took this election away from him. He's creating a smooth road for his comeback. Or a comeback for his kids. But you know, the republicans will suffer because of Trump, and so will America for some years.
    Trump can do and believe what he likes, but at a certain point you are both duty-bound and incentivized to say "No." Continuing to coddle Trump's election temper-tantrum is damaging, both to the republic and the party.

    No one really wants to alienate the Trump voters and run a risk of a primary. But shit like that happens in politics. If you are a big name like Cruz, you can always toss your hat back into the ring on the next cycle. That's both the morally right and politically right decision to make.
    Last edited by GVChamp; 20 Nov 20,, 17:32.

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