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The US 2020 Presidential Election & Attempts To Overturn It

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  • Originally posted by tantalus View Post
    They are surely less relevent to most voters but most voters aren't relevent.

    A swing state can come down to thousands of votes so I think its best to assume it can matter so the decision to debate is potentially an important decision, its a reasonable question if you think down and upside are unequal. I think biden is struggling so he could come across weak in the debate. Ultimately only him and his team know if he is significantly vulnerable, they just need to make the right decision with the info on hand.

    I agree biden just needs a bare min pass and thats a win for him.
    Not showing up to a Presidential debate isn't exactly a "downside vs. upside" thing. It's a norm in Presidential politics for the last few decades. It might be highly damaging to NOT debate the President, and when all you have to do is not massively fuck-up, not agreeing to a debate is way, way more downside than upside.

    Like, Biden wasn't GREAT during some of the Dem debates, but I don't think he'd do so poorly that he'd squander a 7 point polling lead. That'd be catastrophically bad. I don't know, he'd basically have to rip off his pants and jack off on stage.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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    • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
      Not showing up to a Presidential debate isn't exactly a "downside vs. upside" thing. It's a norm in Presidential politics for the last few decades. It might be highly damaging to NOT debate the President, and when all you have to do is not massively fuck-up, not agreeing to a debate is way, way more downside than upside.

      Like, Biden wasn't GREAT during some of the Dem debates, but I don't think he'd do so poorly that he'd squander a 7 point polling lead. That'd be catastrophically bad. I don't know, he'd basically have to rip off his pants and jack off on stage.
      Hard to measure given there is no precendent but I see your point.

      The fact he navigated the democratic debates recently does suggest strongly he can do so here.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tantalus View Post
        Ok thats interesting and I think I agree on both counts but help me a little.

        What do you mean with regard world view?

        And what do you mean with regard nation? fatherland, constitution, the people, american exceptionalism...


        There can be many ways to win but your point is noted.

        What would your best choice that can't win look like?


        Well not mutually exclusive from the right policy. But will pass on the baseball.

        Genereous, one will do.

        World view:
        America (United States of, if in doubt) deserves our loyalty, not the Russians, Chinese, or Saudis. Working with foreign nationals to undermine democracy is wrong. Those who command the most votes should be in charge. Voting is a right, and a duty. Anyone who tries to prevent a legitimate voter from exercising his/her rights to vote should be stopped and punished.

        Best choice?
        The most experienced, qualified person to run for the presidency ran against The Trumpet in 2016, and look where that got us. Yep, no one more qualified since George HW Bush but HR Clinton herself.
        Trust me?
        I'm an economist!

        Comment


        • It is said that you judge a person by the company they keep; all Trumpkin's first campaign team (or nearly all) either have or are facing criminal charges yet he claims to stand for 'Law and Order' while violating the law by holding a Party rally at the White House...

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          • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
            Not sure exactly what you are referring to here...are you disagreeing with me on the characterization of Bush/McCain/Romney? I may disagree with them on policies and execution of some programs but all three proved themselves as mainstream American politicians.
            Sure, why not?
            At least two out of three ...

            Launch any unnecessary wars of aggression against the only secular government in the Middle East lately?
            Sang "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" lately?

            As for Romney, he will rise in my estimation the day he announces that he has left the GOPers for a party with a greater sense of loyalty to the nation.
            Trust me?
            I'm an economist!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by snapper View Post
              Never seen such a carnival of lies as this Trumpian worship RNC. I thought it said it all when they had no agenda but now they claim they have one - one that is all lies.
              Remember, because absolutely nothing has changed in the past four years -- not a single thing! -- there was no need to update the GOPer party platform from v. 2016.
              Trust me?
              I'm an economist!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                Question? Should Biden debate Trump?

                1st Presidential Debate
                Vice President Biden: “Mr President, how can you sleep at night after multiple disasters that have tormented our nation because of your ineptitude, lack of interest in policy matters, and criminal malfeasance?”

                The Trumpet: blah blah blah

                Vice President Biden: “Mr President, have you no shame?”

                Repeat as necessary
                Trust me?
                I'm an economist!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                  Oh and today is Friday and the witching hour, the weekend, is coming.

                  Ratings are coming out. DNC drew more than TNC. Biden drew more than Trump.

                  Wait for it...tweet...spin...dark conspiracy...media...
                  The difference is minimal. Roughly speaking for every 330-660 people, 1 more person watched the DNC v RNC depending on night but of that 330 people only about 51-63 people tuned in at all to either, and many of them tuned into both. Both conventions were ratings flops.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tantalus View Post
                    I meant if the primary had been later or covid earlier it would have been viewed beyond just trump and who is best placed to beat him.

                    I appreciate the outcome most likely remains the same.
                    Okay...got it. Didn't pick up on that.

                    Bottomline is Bernie is and will always remain a fringe candidate. In 25 years he may be mainstream but not now.
                    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                    Mark Twain

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DOR View Post
                      Sure, why not?
                      At least two out of three ...

                      Launch any unnecessary wars of aggression against the only secular government in the Middle East lately?
                      Sang "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" lately?

                      As for Romney, he will rise in my estimation the day he announces that he has left the GOPers for a party with a greater sense of loyalty to the nation.
                      McCain was a hawk...but I don't believe he would have actually launched a war. As a mainline politician he would have appointed a cabinet of rational folk I believe. Don't think they would have gone along with that....

                      Romney is far from perfect...but he was governor of Massachusetts and did introduce a medical plan which the ACA is based on. He did vote for one article of impeachment. I look at him like he is the Republicans Joe Manchin....I mean he is far from preferable but I can get what I need from him on the really important votes. He selected Ryan not cause he wanted him but it was in the immediate aftermath of the Tea Party and he had to select their darling. Real Politik.
                      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                      Mark Twain

                      Comment


                      • Bernie has competed in major party primaries twice and earned the 2nd most votes in the contests each time. The first time he cleared 40%. That's not a fringe candidate, that's a viable base to win a Presidential primary, and there are probably alternate universes where Bernie is the 2020 Democratic nominee. That absolutely means 2024 and 2028 are excellent targets for a Democratic Socialist Democratic candidate.
                        "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                          Bernie has competed in major party primaries twice and earned the 2nd most votes in the contests each time. The first time he cleared 40%. That's not a fringe candidate, that's a viable base to win a Presidential primary, and there are probably alternate universes where Bernie is the 2020 Democratic nominee. That absolutely means 2024 and 2028 are excellent targets for a Democratic Socialist Democratic candidate.
                          Bernie had early success in niche elections. Once he hit the mainstream he fell off quickly amongst the base. He is not the frontrunner for DNC in 24 or 28.

                          His biggest failure is he has not been a member of the Democratic Party and has done nothing to help Democratic candidates get elected writ large before this year. He learned his lesson after his very tepid support for Mrs. Clinton in 2016.
                          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                          Mark Twain

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                            Okay...got it. Didn't pick up on that.

                            Bottomline is Bernie is and will always remain a fringe candidate. In 25 years he may be mainstream but not now.
                            Well he is too old now. I guess it depends on your defintion of fringe. But it looks to me that he got pretty close and it required consolidation to stop him this time round.

                            The demographics will favour his spirtual successor and sometimes a great deal of change can occur very quickly. Covid and the economic damage it inflicts combined with rapid automation and a software eats everything/tech driven/labour light takeover of the economy offer potential catalysts that could terraform the landscape rapidly.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                              Bernie has competed in major party primaries twice and earned the 2nd most votes in the contests each time. The first time he cleared 40%. That's not a fringe candidate, that's a viable base to win a Presidential primary, and there are probably alternate universes where Bernie is the 2020 Democratic nominee. That absolutely means 2024 and 2028 are excellent targets for a Democratic Socialist Democratic candidate.
                              This makes sense to me

                              Comment


                              • Bernie has competed in major party primaries twice and earned the 2nd most votes in the contests each time. The first time he cleared 40%. That's not a fringe candidate, that's a viable base to win a Presidential primary, and there are probably alternate universes where Bernie is the 2020 Democratic nominee. That absolutely means 2024 and 2028 are excellent targets for a Democratic Socialist Democratic candidate.
                                too many unknowns on the Democratic side to make this call.

                                IE, say Biden loses in November. in that case, I definitely agree that 2024 there's a significant chance that the Dems nominate a lefty, because this will be two elections now that they've had to shut up and color for the establishment choice on arguments of "electability", and lost anyway.

                                but if Biden wins? then absent Harris standing in the middle of 5th Avenue and shooting someone, she WILL be the Democratic nominee if Biden doesn't feel like a second term. same with 2028.
                                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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