The US 2020 Presidential Election & Attempts To Overturn It

[tantalus]

A good person in 'decline' is preferable to a morally bankrupt one also in 'decline'.

Good might be a stretch if you believe Tara Reade, find his strange behaviours with other women caught on camera as disturbing or don't like him from a policy perspective. He does excel at not being Donald Trump.

One of the less discussed negatives of Trump is normalising the act of lying and changing what we see as an acceptable standard. Changing how we anchor our perspective. We risk collectively lowering our standards of "good".

[GVChamp]

Tara Reade's accusations are not credible and creepy ain't a crime. Biden has a long history and clearly has something off in his head when it comes to social cues, and he definitely reads like a mental decline in recent years, but there's not really much evidence that he is a Bad Guy.

There is a lot of evidence that Trump is genuinely a Bad Guy, at least by my sensibilities.

No one is getting excited about Biden but he has a great deal more Congressional experience than most of the other candidates and may be able to get a good bit more done. This would have made him a better candidate in, say, 2008 (I would have preferred Hillary to any of the '08 candidates). He probably would have won in 2012 as well and would have slowed down the Democrat's continued decline in Rust Belt states, making 2016 a hell of a lot easier for the Dems than it actually was.

In 2020, he is an obvious transitional candidate that is there to beat Trump and try to keep the various Democratic factions from knifing each other. Overall the Democrats REALLY lucked out in 2020: they have Biden as a de facto candidate who gives a lot of competitive advantages in a lot of areas, they are running against Trump, and they are running against a pandemic. They clearly do not have a path to long-term leadership: Kamala Harris SUCKS, their Vice-Chair in the Senate is controversial Elizabeth Warren, Nancy Pelosi can only remain in power by pledging to surrender power so the Squad has a chance to knife everyone else. While they have a clear demographic advantage, this is not a clear recipe for policy success if everyone in charge is a fucking moron coupled with utter hatred for each other.
Had the GOP nominated other candidates, they would have been much more competitive in 2020. Though, it'd probably still be Biden running, to be honest, and he still would have had an edge with the pandemic.

[TopHatter]

I admire your willingness to vote biden as you are not a democrat. Kudos.

I agree totally with your synopsis of the Big Orange Man.

Thank you, I appreciate the kudos but it's really not that difficult of a decision, given that synopsis of Trump

I don't agree with you on Biden's faculties. I do agree the sentiment that even the worst cast scenario on Biden's decline still makes him the clear and obvious choice. Strange times. It's difficult to know how bad he is, he struggles when he has to think on his feet, when he is challenged, but most people find that difficult with a camera on them, he is a seasoned operator, so it seems he now struggles when he is mentally pushed. By all accounts he did well with his pre planned speech so clearly the extreme theory he is already undergone massive decline is not true. Yet the trend suggets he has declined in the last 2 years.

I won't pretend that a 78 year man hasn't lost at least some of his functionality. I'll leave that sort of blindness to the Trump supporters. Whatever else Joe Biden is, he's still a 78 year old man, with all that that entails.

But, as mentioned, Biden's lifelong stuttering issue can easily masquerade as symptoms of dementia.

Pretending he is not in decline can be a negative as people get attracted to the idea that he is after they see clips of him and they conclude they are being lied too. Feeling you have inside knowledge to the truth is powerful. But drawing too much attention too it risks people voting trump, also very bad.

Biden is 78 and is showing clear signs of decline to me. Giving him one of the hardest jobs in the world that requires atleast 4 more years of effort and had many other willing candidates isn't logical or optimal by the democratic party and its voters. Thats just an example of a pitfall of democracy we have to currently accept. The system works despite these failures, in part because these failures are allowed.

While Biden might be showing signs of decline, there's simply no comparison to Donald Trump. The same holds true when Trump's followers dismiss his pathological lying with the knee-jerk retort: "ALL politicians lie!". Setting aside the fact that Donald Trump is not a politician (a major "plus" that his followers constantly talked up back in 2016), there is, once again, simply no comparison: Donald Trump lies as naturally and as often as he breathes.

The plain and hard fact is that right now there are 2 men running for president: Donald Trump and Joe Biden. Nothing that you or I can say or do will change that plain and hard fact.

So wringing our hands over Biden's shortcomings, real or imagined, is utterly pointless now. This is a binary solution set and the least painful choice, by an order of magnitude, is obvious.

[zraver]

So wringing our hands over Biden's shortcomings, real or imagined, is utterly pointless now. This is a binary solution set and the least painful choice, by an order of magnitude, is obvious.

Its not a binary choice for those of us who are Libertarians. As bad as you think Trump is you want everyone to vote for the guy whose family has made millions of thier connections to him, who wrote the 94 crime bill which basically reinstated the peonage system, voted to restore Jeff Davis and Robert E Lee's citizenship while claiming he did not want his kids growing up in a racial jungle, declared that to be black you had to vote a certain way, declared Indians basically ran 7-11's or drove Taxis, accused a black reporter of being a crackhead for asking a very relevant question, wants to take guns, signed on to a commie manifesto written by Bernie bros, been famously wrong on every major foreign policy decision and whose incompetence in getting a SOFA basically birthed ISIS.... And stop pretending his handsyness with women and girls is not misread social cues, its a complete disregard for the body autonomy of women. Oh finally he appears to be hip deep in using
the FBI as a political weapon at least as it matters regarding Flynn. You want on to vote for that guy?

The Left has no moral high ground.

[TopHatter]

The Left has no moral high ground.

First, welcome back.

I don't give a shit about the Left. Never have. Never will. I will crawl over broken glass to vote a man like Donald Trump out of office.

What's rather incredible that every last thing that you said about Biden, Trump has cranked up past 11....and you simply don't care.

Handsyness with women? Complete disregard for the body autonomy of women? Holy fuck dude, how do you ignore this?

[tantalus]

But, as mentioned, Biden's lifelong stuttering issue can easily masquerade as symptoms of dementia.

Clearly something that has to be weighed and considered in the equation.

The plain and hard fact is that right now there are 2 men running for president: Donald Trump and Joe Biden. Nothing that you or I can say or do will change that plain and hard fact.

So wringing our hands over Biden's shortcomings, real or imagined, is utterly pointless now. This is a binary solution set and the least painful choice, by an order of magnitude, is obvious.

This is true.

[tantalus]

Tara Reade's accusations are not credible and creepy ain't a crime. Biden has a long history and clearly has something off in his head when it comes to social cues, and he definitely reads like a mental decline in recent years, but there's not really much evidence that he is a Bad Guy.

I found her believable. I can't say as to credible as what is a reasonable burden for evidence...its an open question. And clearly different for a voter, than a police officer.

There is a lot of evidence that Trump is genuinely a Bad Guy, at least by my sensibilities.
.

Keep in my mind the spirit of what I said, viewing anyone and anything through the lenses of trump is problematic, with the one obvious, glaring and overwhelming exception Tophatter has underlined, voting day.

[tantalus]

No one is getting excited about Biden but he has a great deal more Congressional experience than most of the other candidates and may be able to get a good bit more done. This would have made him a better candidate in, say, 2008 (I would have preferred Hillary to any of the '08 candidates). He probably would have won in 2012 as well and would have slowed down the Democrat's continued decline in Rust Belt states, making 2016 a hell of a lot easier for the Dems than it actually was.

In 2020, he is an obvious transitional candidate that is there to beat Trump and try to keep the various Democratic factions from knifing each other. Overall the Democrats REALLY lucked out in 2020: they have Biden as a de facto candidate who gives a lot of competitive advantages in a lot of areas, they are running against Trump, and they are running against a pandemic. They clearly do not have a path to long-term leadership: Kamala Harris SUCKS, their Vice-Chair in the Senate is controversial Elizabeth Warren, Nancy Pelosi can only remain in power by pledging to surrender power so the Squad has a chance to knife everyone else. While they have a clear demographic advantage, this is not a clear recipe for policy success if everyone in charge is a fucking moron coupled with utter hatred for each other.
Had the GOP nominated other candidates, they would have been much more competitive in 2020. Though, it'd probably still be Biden running, to be honest, and he still would have had an edge with the pandemic.

I value this perspective. It gives me insight.

Biden isn't my politics but that doesnt mean you are wrong. Its a very difficult equation to solve for.

[tantalus]

, signed on to a commie manifesto written by Bernie bros,

I am actually not that in tune with american politics. What does this refer to ?

[DOR]

Tara Reade's accusations are not credible and creepy ain't a crime. Biden has a long history and clearly has something off in his head when it comes to social cues, and he definitely reads like a mental decline in recent years, but there's not really much evidence that he is a Bad Guy.

There is a lot of evidence that Trump is genuinely a Bad Guy, at least by my sensibilities.

No one is getting excited about Biden but he has a great deal more Congressional experience than most of the other candidates and may be able to get a good bit more done. This would have made him a better candidate in, say, 2008 (I would have preferred Hillary to any of the '08 candidates). He probably would have won in 2012 as well and would have slowed down the Democrat's continued decline in Rust Belt states, making 2016 a hell of a lot easier for the Dems than it actually was.

In 2020, he is an obvious transitional candidate that is there to beat Trump and try to keep the various Democratic factions from knifing each other. Overall the Democrats REALLY lucked out in 2020: they have Biden as a de facto candidate who gives a lot of competitive advantages in a lot of areas, they are running against Trump, and they are running against a pandemic. They clearly do not have a path to long-term leadership: Kamala Harris SUCKS, their Vice-Chair in the Senate is controversial Elizabeth Warren, Nancy Pelosi can only remain in power by pledging to surrender power so the Squad has a chance to knife everyone else. While they have a clear demographic advantage, this is not a clear recipe for policy success if everyone in charge is a fucking moron coupled with utter hatred for each other.
Had the GOP nominated other candidates, they would have been much more competitive in 2020. Though, it'd probably still be Biden running, to be honest, and he still would have had an edge with the pandemic.

OK, so it's obvious you don't like female politicians.

But, what about the Democrats who are providing leadership this year? You know who I mean ...
Harria, Warren, and particularly Pelosi.

Forget their first names.
Forget their genders.

Look at what they've actually done.

[zraver]

First, welcome back.

I don't give a shit about the Left. Never have. Never will. I will crawl over broken glass to vote a man like Donald Trump out of office.

What's rather incredible that every last thing that you said about Biden, Trump has cranked up past 11....and you simply don't care.

Handsyness with women? Complete disregard for the body autonomy of women? Holy fuck dude, how do you ignore this?

[ATTACH]48934[/ATTACH]

I did not vote for Trump last time, won't vote for him this time either. You are crawling over broken glass to vote for someone as bad or worse. Biden is old school D to his bones and as much as he might deny it now his record is clear he only missed being a segregationist by virtue of his birth year. So no Trump hasn't cranked it all up past 11. You don't see Trump family members using access to gain billion dollar deals in China, you don't see Trump patronizing the peonage system, bombing forgien countries that had not yet gotten a dose of high explosive freedom from "Merica". TRUMP IS A CREEPY PERVERTED CORRUPT OLD WHITE GUY, BIDEN IS CREEPY PERVERTED, VASTLY MORE CORRUPT AND UNDENIABLY RACIST OLD WHITE GUY. Hell of a choice.... Go Jo!

[astralis]

I may be wrong, but I read GVChamp's assertion about the Dem party leaders as a question about their chops as a national-level politician vs their actual competency.

ie, HRC was an extremely competent technocrat but just passable as a political candidate.

it's true that Dem leadership is aging, needs a demographic refresh, and most importantly, needs a true Party leader.

but that was true in 2004 as well. Obama stood up to address that particular concern quite well.

I'm not overly concerned with it. leaders can and will rise to the occasion.

[zraver]

I found her believable. I can't say as to credible as what is a reasonable burden for evidence...its an open question. And clearly different for a voter, than a police officer.

Nope, the Left advanced a very clear standard for voters: believe all women. Granted they ditched it as soon as it took out one of their own and another favorite son went to the hooskow for trying to bang kids but that is the standard they advanced.

[astralis]

You don't see Trump family members using access to gain billion dollar deals in China

evidence needed for Biden family doing that.

for that matter, evidence needed that Biden family did anything like what Ivanka did...like getting her trademarks all approved by China literally the day when Xi visited daddy dearest.

bottom-line, Trump is a billionaire with a LONG history of sordid deals and outright corruption. Biden is not. given that he was VP, if he were corrupt he'd certainly have billions in net worth by now. HRC and Bill Clinton easily made $200 million+ in speech fees alone, post-power.

I don't mind if you think Trump's policy choices are better than Biden's, misguided as I think that might be.

if you think Trump is LESS CORRUPT than Biden, then I'm surprised you're not in WWG1WGA territory.

[tantalus]

Nope, the Left advanced a very clear standard for voters: believe all women. Granted they ditched it as soon as it took out one of their own and another favorite son went to the hooskow for trying to bang kids but that is the standard they advanced.

That's not my standard but you are right that many did abandon their me-too principles come biden-reade. And the democratic party did mysteriously lose their voices.