The US 2020 Presidential Election & Attempts To Overturn It

[Bigfella]

I am not following closely the US election campaign, but the extracts I read here are very frightening.
Trump is casting doubt in advance on the results' validity. That sounds like preparing a sort of coup, whether it means delaying the election or staying in power if he is not reelected.
What do you think could happen if he loses the election but says that it was "unaccurate and fraudulent" and refuses to quit the office ?

As TH has pointed out, if Trump does not win the election he is gone. Staging a coup is not as easy as it sounds. While the President is the C in C of the military, those officers, men & women are sworn to uphold the Constitution. Even if Trump were to try something with his goons from the Department of Homeland Security they would likely face a military whose job it is to ensure the Constitution is followed. beating up protesters armed with soup cans in Portland is one thing, taking on trained soldiers is another, Not going to happen.

The biggest threat to the peace here is that Trump declares he has been 'cheated' and numbers of his increasingly fanatical supporter base take up arms & cause problems. There won't be enough for a proper war, but innocents could easily be hurt. The problem is that Trump doesn't care about anyone but Trump, so he won't care that his supporters might get hurt or hurt others.

[Steph]

So practically if Trump for some reason is supposedly still occupying the white house after January 20th (for example pretending that the election’s result is not yet known or anything), what would happen*? Would it be the role of the Army to make him leave the office*? But if so, who would give the orders, as Trump is the Commander in Chief*? (and supposedly would still claim to be C in C after january 20th of course. But I suppose before that there would be some kind of injonction by the Supreme Court and an intervention by the Police*?

[tbm3fan]

So practically if Trump for some reason is supposedly still occupying the white house after January 20th (for example pretending that the election’s result is not yet known or anything), what would happen*? Would it be the role of the Army to make him leave the office*? But if so, who would give the orders, as Trump is the Commander in Chief*? (and supposedly would still claim to be C in C after january 20th of course. But I suppose before that there would be some kind of injonction by the Supreme Court and an intervention by the Police*?

His term ends at noon on January 20th, 2021 and that is written in stone. So...

"If Trump were inclined to overstay his term, the levers of power work in favor of removal. Because the president immediately and automatically loses his constitutional authority upon expiration of his term or after removal through impeachment, he would lack the power to direct the U.S. Secret Service or other federal agents to protect him. He would likewise lose his power, as the commander in chief of the armed forces, to order a military response to defend him. In fact, the newly minted president would possess those presidential powers. If necessary, the successor could direct federal agents to forcibly remove Trump from the White House. Now a private citizen, Trump would no longer be immune from criminal prosecution, and could be arrested and charged with trespassing in the White House. While even former presidents enjoy Secret Service protection, agents presumably would not follow an illegal order to protect one from removal from office."
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ont-go/606259/

It will be interesting because Trump considers himself to always be a winner and never a loser. Losing would challenge his psychological underpinnings head on. How he reconciles that is a big unknown. Will he see the light and graciously leave office? I think most of us think not. Will he bitch and moan but ultimately sulk away and not even greet the new President at the White House steps? I'm hoping for that. Will he challenge the whole system and try to invalidate the election? Only God knows but I can tell you that would put a big black mark on the United States as a Republic and would be the absolute worst outcome.

[TopHatter]

So practically if Trump for some reason is supposedly still occupying the white house after January 20th (for example pretending that the election’s result is not yet known or anything), what would happen*? Would it be the role of the Army to make him leave the office*? But if so, who would give the orders, as Trump is the Commander in Chief*? (and supposedly would still claim to be C in C after january 20th of course. But I suppose before that there would be some kind of injonction by the Supreme Court and an intervention by the Police*?

After 12:00pm on January 20th, there is no injunction possible by the Supreme Court. The Constitution spells out, right down the last second, when the President ceases to be the President, unless reelected with the minimum needed number of properly certified Electoral College votes.

Personally I don't think it will come down Trump being physically removed from the White House for one simple and immutable reason: Donald Trump is, at his core, a complete and utter coward.

Once he loses the support of the GOP, especially the Senate, he will slither out with his forked tail between his legs. Whether that occurs as a result of a landslide defeat at the polls, or even some other event prior to Election Day, his actual physical departure will be meek and silent.

Naturally once he's off the White House property, he'll erupt in a ball of impotent rage and fury, but that's just Trumpism. You have to expect that sort of thing.

[Albany Rifles]

And at this point, where it is looking more and moe like he will lose (Iknow, I know, early days), I doubt he will show up for the Inauguration.

[Steph]

OK so he is more likely to contest the election's results right when the votes are being counted, or maybe somehow sabotage the election. What could happen for example if (as he is saying) some massive frauds were effectively reported on election day ? would it be possible that the votes in a State are nullified ? Would that need a court's decision ?

[TopHatter]

OK so he is more likely to contest the election's results right when the votes are being counted, or maybe somehow sabotage the election.

It's not more likely, it's a certainty. He has already said the election will be the most fraudulent history. He is also threatening to sue Nevada for sending mail-in ballots to all registered voters in that state.

What could happen for example if (as he is saying) some massive frauds were effectively reported on election day ? would it be possible that the votes in a State are nullified ? Would that need a court's decision ?

It's entirely possible that such an outcome will end up in the Supreme Court, as it did it in 2000.

The bottom line is that if Trump is still fogging a mirror on Election Day, he will do anything and everything he possibly can to disrupt and contest the election.

[GVChamp]

You are fast approaching the Caesar/Rubicon moment. There was arguably a good reason Caesar crossed the Rubicon and refused to lay down his Consulship; he knew he would be prosecuted and (most likely) found condemned once the legal immunity of holding the Consulship (and several Legions of troops) ended. To his supporters the planned charges were naturally "malicious, politically motivated" etc but to his detractors - and the 'constitutionalists' of the time - it was just normal that an ex Consul could be sued in the courts the same as anyone else.

To my mind there is little doubt that Trump while President has broken a host of law - emoluments not least - but I would be wary of promising prosecution him and his ilk no matter their sins.

I think the biggest difference here is that Trump posted a question on Twitter and Caesar led an army to occupy the capital.
Also Caesar was INCREDIBLY popular with his only real opposition being portions of the aristocracy, which is why he ultimately prevailed. That and Caesar being super-competent.

[TopHatter]

I think the biggest difference here is that Trump posted a question on Twitter and Caesar led an army to occupy the capital.
Also Caesar was INCREDIBLY popular with his only real opposition being portions of the aristocracy, which is why he ultimately prevailed. That and Caesar being super-competent.

"Question" my ass.

We don't need even the hint of this shit right now (or ever). All its doing is stirring up the Reich-wing of this country and causing yet more divisiveness, to say nothing of casting doubt on the legitimacy of the election.

[DOR]

OK so he is more likely to contest the election's results right when the votes are being counted, or maybe somehow sabotage the election. What could happen for example if (as he is saying) some massive frauds were effectively reported on election day ? would it be possible that the votes in a State are nullified ? Would that need a court's decision ?

The possibility that aliens from Venus will land in Toledo on election day and rig the votes is another one to worry about...

[GVChamp]

"Question" my ass.

We don't need even the hint of this shit right now (or ever). All its doing is stirring up the Reich-wing of this country and causing yet more divisiveness, to say nothing of casting doubt on the legitimacy of the election.

You just referred to a huge section of the US as Nazis. Your counsel on reducing American's political division is noted and will be marked to value accordingly.

[Steph]

The possibility that aliens from Venus will land in Toledo on election day and rig the votes is another one to worry about...

Well, if the Venusian are connected to twitter, no doubt Trump will try that too ...

[Double Edge]

It's not more likely, it's a certainty. He has already said the election will be the most fraudulent history.

When i saw that tweet you get the impression he isn't confident of winning by much of a margin.

The other possibility is he is just covering his bases in the eventuality its very close.

He certainly won't say it was fraudulent if he wins by a clear margin.

The bottom line is that if Trump is still fogging a mirror on Election Day, he will do anything and everything he possibly can to disrupt and contest the election.

Commentators i've heard think it will be settled in court. A more divisive version of what happened in 2000.

[TopHatter]

When i saw that tweet you get the impression he isn't confident of winning by much of a margin.

The other possibility is he is just covering his bases in the eventuality its very close.

He certainly won't say it was fraudulent if he wins by a clear margin.

Commentators i've heard think it will be settled in court. A more divisive version of what happened in 2000.

All of the above is almost certainly correct, IMO

[TopHatter]

You just referred to a huge section of the US as Nazis. Your counsel on reducing American's political division is noted and will be marked to value accordingly.

The Reich-wing, as in the Alt-Right. The ones that are literally flying Nazi flags. Odd that you would assume that I'm referring to everyone right-of-center, which would include myself. To be clear, and for the record, I was referring to people like this: