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The US 2020 Presidential Election & Attempts To Overturn It

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  • Originally posted by astralis View Post
    in that regards, he's very much like other conservatives in that it's essentially a worldview that despairs of (little-d) democracy.

    for me, it's actually very instructive-- it shows how people go from reality-based conservatism to the crazy monarchists and the guys who worship Orban/Putin-- the culturally conservative side wins out over the other libertarian aspects of conservatism.
    To be fair, the uber woke left is just as authoritarian as the Putin worshipping conservatives. They just differ on who they want in charge.

    Comment


    • Ehhhh, close enough, though I wouldn't call myself conservative. I grew up in the Dubya era, where being socially conservative meant being against pot, gay marriage, and not going to church. And that was pretty much bipartisan. The Tea Party era immediately afterwards required believing that we were about enter an immediate inflationary epidemic and needed to have large-scale austerity plus bringing back the gold standard (????). The Trump MAGA think we need to cut immigration, including high-skill immigration, in order to make America strong, and that international trade as practiced make us weaker.

      By any measure against the prevailing conservative movements, I barely qualify as conservative. I'd be a RINO, dangerously close to the Never-Trumper category. I only look conservative compared to my demographic group, which is Blue State Millennials, because that group is REALLY Blue and has more self-identified socialists than self-identified GOPers. This, of course, is a major problem, because they want to take my health care for their crazy vanity projects, but that's at least a tolerable problem and probably acceptable within the bounds of our Constitution. The broader problem is that my generation and the succeeding Gen Zers are largely loyal to nothing, highly illiberal compared to past generations, and excuse/engage in low-level street violence. I'm uninterested in living in Peronist Argentina with wandering street gangs beating up whoever they feel is racist today, and desecrating whatever symbol Twitter told them is Mean.
      "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
        To be fair, the uber woke left is just as authoritarian as the Putin worshipping conservatives. They just differ on who they want in charge.
        Well your uber left is really no match for the far right. They are split into many camps having their particular pet issues. The far right is not split like that. They all agree that white supremacy is the only way and pretty much feel anyone to the left of them, just a notch, is evil. For them there wouldn't be much difference between Pelosi, Shumer, Romney, and McCain. I would say they are pretty focused.

        Look at me I live in what many would call the Sodom and Gomorrah of the United States, the Bay Area with the far left Berkeley and San Francisco. Am I concerned about those you just mentioned in the Bay Area? No. The place is fairly centrist to a tad left overall. Of course Fox News likes to highlight what they like to highlight yet when you watch the local 11 o/c news it is fairly mundane. We also have our share from the right given the episodes of those either cursing Asians or spitting on Asians. Mostly what concerns people here is traffic, cost of housing, traffic, the environment given we live in a really nice place, did I mention traffic, water, PG&E, and now fire since summer is here.

        Comment


        • bingo.

          conservatives do a LOT of "mirror-imaging" when it comes to liberals, which is why they're convinced that AntiFa is just like the left-wing version of their militias. it was hilarious to see all the redneck hicks come out of the woodwork because they were convinced that AntiFa was gonna bus into the middle of nowhere.

          as I've said a million times, while the liberal weakness is insufferable lecturing, the conservative weakness is paranoia.

          of the two, the latter is the more dangerous: would you rather get lectured at, or have people bust into your local pizza parlor looking for the Clinton/Soros pedophile ring?
          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
            Well your uber left is really no match for the far right. They are split into many camps having their particular pet issues. The far right is not split like that. They all agree that white supremacy is the only way and pretty much feel anyone to the left of them, just a notch, is evil. For them there wouldn't be much difference between Pelosi, Shumer, Romney, and McCain. I would say they are pretty focused.

            Look at me I live in what many would call the Sodom and Gomorrah of the United States, the Bay Area with the far left Berkeley and San Francisco. Am I concerned about those you just mentioned in the Bay Area? No. The place is fairly centrist to a tad left overall. Of course Fox News likes to highlight what they like to highlight yet when you watch the local 11 o/c news it is fairly mundane. We also have our share from the right given the episodes of those either cursing Asians or spitting on Asians. Mostly what concerns people here is traffic, cost of housing, traffic, the environment given we live in a really nice place, did I mention traffic, water, PG&E, and now fire since summer is here.
            There is a difference in having authoritarian tendencies and actually having the authority to implement them. The only authority the uber woke left has right now is on college campuses and the twitter outrage mobs going after people's livelihoods for saying the wrong thing. I really don't want to see that class of nutjobs get political power. Just like I don't want to see right wing bible thumpers or white nationalists in power. Leaving aside the Democratic party establishment there are enough people on the extreme left for whom "defund the police" does really mean "abolish the police" and societal change means something far too close to a communist revolution. I'd be lying if I said these people don't scare me.

            As of right now, the right wing nutjobs are a bigger threat because of Trump. If/when he is out of power the situation can change.
            Last edited by Firestorm; 24 Jun 20,, 23:16.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
              Because it would mean sharing. It would mean that some might not have their King of the Hill gold plated plan which they feel they are absolutely entitled to. I would mean they might wait a few weeks to get that benign growth removed from their back rather than immediately. It would mean your routine physical needs to be scheduled 4 months in advance rather than a few weeks. The desire to be first in line, to have the bestest, is strong in this country.
              Nonsense.
              There is nothing in the UK that says private health care is illegal.
              There is nothing in Hong Kong that says private health care is illegal.
              There is no logical reason why extending medicare to everyone requires eliminating private healthcare.
              It is a red herring, and frankly beneath the quality of thinking I expect from most of the people who regularly comment here.
              If you want private healthcare after everyone has access to healthcare, pay for it.
              But, don't justify denying healthcare to the most needy with an argument that is based on the wishes -- not needs, but desires -- of the most well-to-do.
              Trust me?
              I'm an economist!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DOR View Post
                Nonsense.
                There is nothing in the UK that says private health care is illegal.
                There is nothing in Hong Kong that says private health care is illegal.
                There is no logical reason why extending medicare to everyone requires eliminating private healthcare.
                It is a red herring, and frankly beneath the quality of thinking I expect from most of the people who regularly comment here.
                If you want private healthcare after everyone has access to healthcare, pay for it.
                But, don't justify denying healthcare to the most needy with an argument that is based on the wishes -- not needs, but desires -- of the most well-to-do.
                Because it creates a two-tier system where those with money get better healthcare services and access than the vast majority of the country. Now you've created another inequality in the country. And how do you obtain and retain medical talent if one system pays vastly more than the other? Rely on the professional's good intentions and good heart to take less money to provide healthcare for those in the underclass system? It's really not that hard to understand.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by statquo View Post
                  Because it creates a two-tier system where those with money get better healthcare services and access than the vast majority of the country. Now you've created another inequality in the country. And how do you obtain and retain medical talent if one system pays vastly more than the other? Rely on the professional's good intentions and good heart to take less money to provide healthcare for those in the underclass system? It's really not that hard to understand.
                  And on top of that, you're going to hear from those using the private system bitch about why their tax dollars should go into an underclass system that they don't use. Come on this is the US it's too predictable.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by statquo View Post
                    Because it creates a two-tier system where those with money get better healthcare services and access than the vast majority of the country. Now you've created another inequality in the country. And how do you obtain and retain medical talent if one system pays vastly more than the other? Rely on the professional's good intentions and good heart to take less money to provide healthcare for those in the underclass system? It's really not that hard to understand.
                    "Because it creates a two-tier system..." Sorry, but which planet are you from?
                    Anyone who thinks the US does not already have a multi-tiered healthcare system -- from Mayo Clinic to emergency room only care -- is either deliberately lying or simply and very deeply ignorant.

                    ADD: And as for those who don't want their tax dollars going to pay for benefits that someone else receives, ... which planet? I don't have children, but I pay for schools.
                    Fair?
                    Wrong question.
                    Trust me?
                    I'm an economist!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                      bingo.

                      conservatives do a LOT of "mirror-imaging" when it comes to liberals, which is why they're convinced that AntiFa is just like the left-wing version of their militias. it was hilarious to see all the redneck hicks come out of the woodwork because they were convinced that AntiFa was gonna bus into the middle of nowhere.

                      as I've said a million times, while the liberal weakness is insufferable lecturing, the conservative weakness is paranoia.

                      of the two, the latter is the more dangerous: would you rather get lectured at, or have people bust into your local pizza parlor looking for the Clinton/Soros pedophile ring?
                      Precincts aren't burning and statues aren't toppling from lecturers. The biggest difference is that there are far more insufferable lecturers than paranoid nuts, and the insufferable lecturers basically end up as a mob. "Past performance is not a guarantee of future results."

                      Obviously don't dismiss the lone nuts, because that's another word for "Tim McVeigh." A whole bunch of them and you are in for a world of hurt. But there are not THAT many of them and most of them are not motivated to action.

                      Oh, and I think the biggest weakness is that most conservatives are too racist and most liberals are too commie. The basic stereotypes are there for a reason!
                      "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

                      Comment


                      • Precincts aren't burning and statues aren't toppling from lecturers.
                        yes, but how much involves violence against persons?

                        in the meantime, the right-wing extremist response has been vehicle rammings, with 50 of those so far.

                        or even thinking back to the lockdown protests, where the response was to bring rifles into the Michigan legislature, forcing the legislature to shut down.

                        I mean we're getting to the silly point where we're trying to rank how bad the violence is, but the implicit threat of murdering legislators and government officials for advocating basic health protection guidelines should be pretty bad to anyone.

                        in my home county of Orange County -- the previous bastion of upper class country club Republicanism -- the chief health officer quit after advocating for masks, because armed groups were showing up on her lawn. i'm pretty sure that wasn't the woke mob.
                        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                        Comment


                        • Unrelated but is Orange County at all connected with Holland?

                          Comment


                          • no, the name comes from local boosterism and the citrus exports.
                            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                              no, the name comes from local boosterism and the citrus exports.
                              I thought it came from the actor's "tans"....
                              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                              Mark Twain

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DOR View Post
                                "Because it creates a two-tier system..." Sorry, but which planet are you from?
                                Anyone who thinks the US does not already have a multi-tiered healthcare system -- from Mayo Clinic to emergency room only care -- is either deliberately lying or simply and very deeply ignorant.

                                ADD: And as for those who don't want their tax dollars going to pay for benefits that someone else receives, ... which planet? I don't have children, but I pay for schools.
                                Fair?
                                Wrong question.
                                I’m from Canada where private healthcare is political suicide. Only people with money want a private system and shit on our current universal system. You’re either being completely obtuse, an emotional prepuberty teenager, or maybe haven’t left your country in your life and have no idea how the rest of the world operates. Private healthcare benefits doctors who can implement their business models and increase their bottom line, which neither is in public interest, while threatening principles in equity and fairness of the public system. In Canada healthcare is a right and that right is undermined if access and quality is skewed to the few privileged who can afford private healthcare.

                                I know in the US, Americans don’t give a shit about their neighbours, but most of the world does. American healthcare is better at the high end, but in the end we pay less per capita, far less of our GDP, have better infant mortality rates and life expectancy to name a few. There’s an economic benefit and good public health outcome of having a universal system.

                                That’s if you give a shit about your fellow citizens. And don’t tell me if you were given the option to not pay for schools you don’t use you wouldn’t take it. Americans are too predictable.

                                Step into my office. Because your fucking fired.

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