The US 2020 Presidential Election & Attempts To Overturn It

[GVChamp]

You didn't think it was unprofessional ? Floyd was motionless after 5 minutes

What was the harm in getting off his neck at that point.

As for legal, yeah, been the case since 2012 from what i understood and used over four hundred times since in Minneapolis.

It isn't the hold that strick me as excessive but the duration it went on for given no apparent threat. He didn't need to die.

We don't even know why the hold was used. The heavily redacted bodycam footage released by the Park police was a joke, people will think there are these strange black rectangles walking around in that city.

The security cam footage showed no resisting the arrest. Then he is walked off to the car, and they are trying to get him into the car and he falls down and that was it. Next we know there are these three cops pinning him down.

The guy was a bouncer and twice the size of each of them. In a free fight he'd have knocked them over easy.

There is clear video of him trying to bust out of the vehicle.
Now, unprofessional. Sure. But unprofessional is not the same as criminal, and "criminal" has different degrees, which is why murder has different degrees.

In what department?

The use of knee or leg along the upper back is allowed but I have seen nowhere nor heard any police department say that kneeling across the neck is an authorized move.

It's allowed anywhere it is not explicitly banned, and few places have explicitly banned it. Minneapolis explicitly allows it in their training manual, though different question whether Chauvin personally was permitted.

Defund, in this case, means moving funds to such things as Reform. And De-Arm means buying or using less military surplus gear, not Re-Arming with other equipment.

I don't think either of these solutions are advisable. You are quoting the Camden case, but the critical piece in Camden was first destroying the union. This allowed them to fire a whole bunch of bad officers, but it also allowed them to cut benefits, and it also allowed them to increase street patrols because they could require officers to engage in street patrols. Prior to that, you had to pay officers extra to walk a beat.
Camden has more cops and more cop presence now than it did before, especially since it has an auxiliary force of 100+ people to do security for commercial sectors.

The biggest police problem is under-policing, not police brutality. That doesn't mean police brutality isn't a problem, but solving one does not require sacrificing the other, and if you have to make a trade, you are better off with more police doing more brutality if they can catch more criminals. There are something like a million violent crimes in the US every year, and police brutality is just not even in the same ballpark as these actual criminals.

De-Arming the police doesn't make sense to me. What are the concrete benefits this is supposed to provide? How much is actually transferred? Of what kind? Stars and Stripes says $5 billion...over the last 30 years? So $160 million of equipment per year?

Also, "defund the police" seems to be the new Medicare for All, except worse because there is no concrete plan yet. However, the radicals who popularized it, at least on Twitter, are VERY clear: they do NOT want armed people in their neighborhoods, they think most issues can be solved by social workers, and they think cutting police budgets by double-digit percentages is a good start. It is NOT a moderate proposal and it all borders on fantasy.

Maybe your best bet is to take cops out of traffic stops, because you probably don't need cops for that.

[astralis]

I would like to see basic de-militarization.

IE police departments should not be sporting freakin' armored personnel carriers.

donating surplus military equipment to police departments was a disaster and a terrible idea. cops aren't soldiers, SWAT teams should be limited in size and number to major metropolitan areas.

moreover the little stunt that Barr pulled in DC was disturbing as hell: use of Bureau of Prison riot squads with no identifiable insignia to intimidate protesters was messed up beyond belief.

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir, I'm fairly certain that the mercs in Yugoslavia had select-fire weapons.

The ones I've seen carried Chinese Type56/AK47 and battle armour was non-existence, even for us. So, yeah, those AR15s with laser sites and body armour were definetely a cut above those mercs.

Regarding Antifa, I've yet to see them toting long rifles or even pistols around, certainly nothing like the Alt-Right. Their weapon of choice seems to be basic blunt instruments, like baseball bats and such.

Your police say otherwise

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...un-laws-242506

And they're starting their own militias.



A long way togo to catch up to the ALTRIGHT, especially wtih firearm safety, but you can be sure more than a few grew up around firearms.

[Officer of Engineers]

I would like to see basic de-militarization.

IE police departments should not be sporting freakin' armored personnel carriers.

donating surplus military equipment to police departments was a disaster and a terrible idea. cops aren't soldiers, SWAT teams should be limited in size and number to major metropolitan areas.

moreover the little stunt that Barr pulled in DC was disturbing as hell: use of Bureau of Prison riot squads with no identifiable insignia to intimidate protesters was messed up beyond belief.

Doesn't work for a number of reasons. Your citizens are now extremely well armed. Well past the point where you do need some sort of armour. The military donated CPs which happened to be thin skin armour. In Yugoslavia, APCs were a god send, not because of the FIVE-OH it carried but because it was a bullet magnet protecting the civies crossing the street. There have been enough firefights that an APC is one of those things that you would rather have and not need than needing but not have.

And you CANNOT under-estimate the pysch value of an APC showing up to scare the shit out of wannabe Rambos.

In rural area, SWAT is like the volunteer fire department. Regular but specially trained police on patrol or at home. They rush to the engagement site when called and don their gear on site.

[Gun Grape]

No, those were NOT legal nor registered firearms.

And the only people killed were the 2 robbers.

[astralis]

Doesn't work for a number of reasons. Your citizens are now extremely well armed. Well past the point where you do need some sort of armour. The military donated CPs which happened to be thin skin armour. In Yugoslavia, APCs were a god send, not because of the FIVE-OH it carried but because it was a bullet magnet protecting the civies crossing the street. There have been enough firefights that an APC is one of those things that you would rather have and not need than needing but not have.

And you CANNOT under-estimate the pysch value of an APC showing up to scare the shit out of wannabe Rambos.

there is no real difference in how civilians were armed in the late 1990s, when the program started, and now.

there are probably a few handful of situations (terrorism, hostage-taking) that may warrant major cities having APCs on standby.

but for 99.9% cases of crowd control, that is insane. if it's that bad, the governor can call in the National Guard. I can't think of a single instance off the top of my head where the police department having APCs was a godsend to the local community, or prevented major loss of life.

as it is, we have podunk towns of 15,000 people having their own APCs. that is a stupid waste of money and does nothing but aggravate a situation. i'm sure the Ferguson PD had -real- good relations with their community after using APCs in a show of force.

[Officer of Engineers]

there is no real difference in how civilians were armed in the late 1990s, when the program started, and now.

Good. North Hollywood was 1997.

but for 99.9% cases of crowd control, that is insane. if it's that bad, the governor can call in the National Guard.

Several layers above the Mayor who needs immediate action, not wait 24-72 hours for the Guard to roll out.

I can't think of a single instance off the top of my head where the police department having APCs was a godsend to the local community, or prevented major loss of life.

You fdorgetting that some of these were CPs? Command Posts?

Don't know about the US but the very fact that it's a bullet magnet has saved lives in Canada.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...ents-1.5171785

The vehicle was draining the perp's ammo stock.

[Gun Grape]

as it is, we have podunk towns of 15,000 people having their own APCs. that is a stupid waste of money and does nothing but aggravate a situation. i'm sure the Ferguson PD had -real- good relations with their community after using APCs in a show of force.

Towns? My whole county only has 13k people and the Sheriffs Dept has a MRAP. We avg about 1 murder every 7 years

[tbm3fan]

Your police say otherwise

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...un-laws-242506

And they're starting their own militias.



A long way togo to catch up to the ALTRIGHT, especially wtih firearm safety, but you can be sure more than a few grew up around firearms.

I just read the article and the main thrust throughout the article dealt with the altright. Only mentioned antifa in two paragraphs and in open carry states. Being open carry what opposition protestor would go unprotected knowing there would be heavily armed white alt-right members. No sense going to a gun fight in Texas with a knife. I know a liberal black colleague in Texas who is heavily armed in his professional office no less. Texas is a strange state still.

When I have personally seen antifa in action, what two to three years ago in Berkeley they were armed with bats, 2x4s and bricks which they threw at UC buildings on Bancroft. Same just happened one Saturday night, two weeks ago, in Oakland. That has been their typical mode of action for the last twenty years here.

[Gun Grape]

Can anyone honestly justify this?

https://www.thedrive.com/news/33943/...midst-protests

Having your tires slashed is an infuriating experience, typically followed by a call to the police. But who do you call when it's the cops doing the slashing? That's just what's been happening in Minneapolis, amidst widespread protests there over the death of local resident George Floyd at the hands of police.

Evidence of the police slashings is presented rather plainly In several images and videos posted by Mother Jones. Officers in tactical gear can be seen walking up to cars and stabbing their tires with knives. Many believed these mass tire-slashings were the result of rioters, however, that is not the case. Both the Minnesota State Police and deputies of the Anoka County Sheriff's Department openly admitted to being responsible, saying they were slashing tires under the direction of the state-led Multi-Agency Command Center.

Among those affected: news crews, medics and protesters.

As to the reasoning behind the giddy destruction of property, Minnesota Department of Public Safety spokesman Bruce Gordon told the Minneapolis Star-Tribune that "State Patrol troopers strategically deflated tires … in order to stop behaviors such as vehicles driving dangerously and at high speeds in and around protesters and law enforcement." Gordon also said that police slashed tires if they saw pieces of concrete, rocks, or sticks inside a vehicle.

Star-Tribune reporter Chris Serres says his tires were slashed at a local K-Mart, along with two dozen other cars. Other members of the media had their tires slashed, including reporters from Radio-Canada and The New Yorker. The K-Mart parking lot in question was reportedly used as a staging area for the police during the course of the protests, which explains why this particular location received the brunt of the damage. Apparently law enforcement felt the parked cars were a threat to their safety.

Gordon insists the process of "strategically" slashing people's tires was "not a typical tactic." However, he claims it was necessary to keep the area safe. It's unclear whether any sort of sum will be paid to replace the ruined tires or the cost to tow the vehicles to a shop, but I doubt any of that will happen, even though the police have claimed responsibility. Gordon added, "As in all operations of this size, there will be a review about how these decisions were made."

That's comforting. I'm sure all the right people will be held accountable.

[tbm3fan]

Chalk it up to the standard excuse... I felt my life was threatened.

Now who is taking care of the tires at $500 to $1200 an innocent car?

[Gun Grape]

In what department?

The use of knee or leg along the upper back is allowed but I have seen nowhere nor heard any police department say that kneeling across the neck is an authorized move.

I know from "use of force" training in the USMC that anything above the shoulders is considered Deadly Force. You better have a damn good reason for applying deadly force to someone that is handcuffed and on the ground

[GVChamp]

I would like to see basic de-militarization.

IE police departments should not be sporting freakin' armored personnel carriers.

donating surplus military equipment to police departments was a disaster and a terrible idea. cops aren't soldiers, SWAT teams should be limited in size and number to major metropolitan areas.

moreover the little stunt that Barr pulled in DC was disturbing as hell: use of Bureau of Prison riot squads with no identifiable insignia to intimidate protesters was messed up beyond belief.

I don't feel threatened at all by my local police department having a MRAP or a humvee. I think it was pretty good when we had an active shooter in the neighborhood and we had about 100 police officers show up in about 10 minutes, including a SWAT team and a MRAP.
Not particularly interested in reducing my safety or the safety of the police officers that protect me because some people think a MRAP looks scary.

[Albany Rifles]

In Minneapolis

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/02/u...nvs/index.html

Not where it happens....I've seen photos from around the world, including India.

Where is it acknowledged safe practice?

[Albany Rifles]

I thought every state had a police force in US. E.g., LAPD, NYPD. Didn't know ^.

I also think, and this I think, the left media, in every democratic country have a habit of picking up such kind of incident and mainstreaming it for sensationalism. It sells. Then the right starts to attack the narrative. Instead, why wasn't the narrative on being about justice, reforming the police system, de-arming the police. Sensationalism gave ground to these protests. I am all for peaceful protests, but the left media is shirking its responsibility every passing day, everywhere. People need to be united against all forms of extremes, be it far-left or far-right. I may not like someone's political opinion or leanings, but in no way should I call for him to be harmed.

Colonel, the far-left in India is much better organised that the far-right. Far-right is still a shadow of the right, and can only shout making their presence felt. Far-left has killed in the 1000s here.

US Park Police are NOT state police. They are part of the Department of the Interior and with a few exceptions, they only have jurisdiction in special instances.