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  • surfgun
    replied
    The lack of teaching history, makes it easier to push the Socialist agenda! They dumb the kids down on purpose!

    Leave a comment:


  • astralis
    replied
    definitely there with you on the lack of civics knowledge...i doubt half of US high schoolers can pass the civics test we administer to naturalizing immigrants.

    My point is better educated voters make better informed decisions
    this is the tricky part. I used to think that way for sure. it's become more clear to me though that better educated voters (on both sides) use that education to simply create more sophisticated justifications for their political beliefs.

    the crux here is the system, which needs major reform. take away the incentives for pushing for extremes, and people will push for moderation instead.

    Leave a comment:


  • Albany Rifles
    replied
    Originally posted by astralis View Post
    AR,



    haha, showing your age there! not just one, but two generations of get-off-my-lawnism! :-)

    frankly i think the one-third of dumbasses have always existed. the only reason why they're getting louder is because 1.) the system itself is badly broken and in constant paralysis, 2.) the Internet gives every dumbass a huge loudspeaker.

    much of our current-day issues simply stems from the fact that it now requires supermajorities in Congress + the executive for -any- legislative movement. this is prime space for populists and fascists promising to sweep all the deadwood away.
    Yeah, I'm an old. But I have seen the appalling lack of civics knowledge on the rise for 25-30 years. It started whenb I started teaching survey American History in college in 1991. It has continued right on up to this time.

    My point is better educated voters make better informed decisions. If you can argue with me but from a place of knowledge then we can get along even if we disagree.

    But if you can't even give me a reason for your disagreement beyond "librul" then it's a loss.

    Leave a comment:


  • astralis
    replied
    snapper,

    To be a 'nationalist' I equate with some form of racial favouritism; Dmowski in 1920s Poland for example who wanted a sort 'purely' Polish state - everyone speaks Polish and is Catholic sort of thing. Trumpkin is possibly a nationalist and has definately enacted racist policies. So have been Orban's policies
    yes, this is a very European, and indeed very mittel-European, construct of nationalism.

    and very unfortunately it's infected a significant portion of the American right, which used to define nationalism in terms of American pluralistic ideals.

    i am very, very, glad that the whole Trump-Zelensky call was blown into the open. from what I read, Zelensky was on the verge of capitulation to Trump's demands, which would have badly hurt Ukraine's cause in the long run.

    Leave a comment:


  • snapper
    replied
    Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
    The term Fascist is way too overused these days by people who don't remember and don't care what it originally meant. It has become de rigueur to delegitimize the opposition by terming them fascist/bigoted/nationalist/far right etc. by the supposedly liberal left. Trump is a despicable person and a clown who shouldn't be anywhere close to power in my opinion, but he is not a fascist. Victor Orban who has been fighting democratic elections and has spent time in power as well as in the opposition in parliament and continues to abide by Hungary's democratic rules is also not a fascist. Erdogan's case is different since he has become the de-facto dictator of Turkey having stamped out the opposition in an un-democratic manner. Lumping Orban, Bolsonaro or Trump with him is immensely problematic. The left-liberals these days believe that anyone who holds nationalistic or socially/economically conservative views must be a fascist/far right/ultra-nationalist by definition!

    I'm sure we'll soon reach a point where anyone to the right of Sanders and AoC will be termed a fascist and erstwhile liberals will find themselves as targets too. Gabbard is already persona non-grata as far as "liberals" are concerned and I wouldn't be surprised if Biden is termed too right wing in the not too distant future.
    An interesting question. I am certainly no 'fascist' though anyone who opposes Muscovy and is in Ukraine or has Ukrainian citizenship (and husband and children) have labelled "fascist" by Moscow.

    First I do not think Mussolini's 'fascism' was the same as the Nazi form for starters - or at least not in the start. Nor was Franco's Spain the same as either Italy or Germany. So defining 'fascism' by examples is difficult. For me it is an idea derived from Hegel's Theory of the State which says the state is the supreme form of social existence - the identity of 'the people' personified as it were. I very much doubt Trumpkin has Hegel (he is not easy to read) and very much doubt the Orange man child has any 'theory of state' so in general I very much doubt his intellectual capacity to 'fascist' in the ideal sense, that is to say believing in the Hegelian idea or a variant of it. Nor would I have called Hitler or Franco idealistic fascists though; Mussolini possibly.

    None of what we see today is 'fascism' (and many that consider themselves 'fascists' today are deluding themselves) it is more opportunism - and in some cases opportunism with self enrichment. Orban was bought long ago. Erdogan has enriched himself and his family - Putin well he is said to be really the richest man in the world. Trumpkin is just following their example - defeating the law and any 'norms' "it's just not done old chap" stuff for his own profit. There is absolutely no doubt that Moscow has the dirt on him as Nancy Pelosi noted "All roads [with Trump] lead back to Moscow" from the Syrian debacle to Ukrainian dirty business.

    To be a 'nationalist' I equate with some form of racial favouritism; Dmowski in 1920s Poland for example who wanted a sort 'purely' Polish state - everyone speaks Polish and is Catholic sort of thing. Trumpkin is possibly a nationalist and has definately enacted racist policies. So have been Orban's policies. But a nationalist and fascist are not the same necessarily - though often they go together. I do not think I can qualify as a nationalist as I have coloured cousins whom I love no less than my Polish cousins.

    A patriot is just someone who wants what they think is best for their country - I can be Polish Ukrainian patriot in both senses because while my family home is now in Ukraine and I live and work for Ukraine I believe that by and large the victory of Ukraine in the war against the aggressor, every reform we can take here to help prosperity here is also beneficial to Poland.
    Last edited by snapper; 12 Nov 19,, 16:52.

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  • astralis
    replied
    AR,

    Turkey Fan,

    I lay this ignorance at the feet of the complete lack of civics education in our schools. We are reaping the harvest of our pivot to everything STEM and dropped civics/history/poli sci from our school curriculums. Our public school textbooks across the nation are designed and approved by the Texas State School Board...Texas gets to do this because they buy so many books they skew the market.

    We have raised 2 generations of citizens who do not know what that word means.
    haha, showing your age there! not just one, but two generations of get-off-my-lawnism! :-)

    frankly i think the one-third of dumbasses have always existed. the only reason why they're getting louder is because 1.) the system itself is badly broken and in constant paralysis, 2.) the Internet gives every dumbass a huge loudspeaker.

    much of our current-day issues simply stems from the fact that it now requires supermajorities in Congress + the executive for -any- legislative movement. this is prime space for populists and fascists promising to sweep all the deadwood away.

    Leave a comment:


  • Albany Rifles
    replied
    Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Doesn't surprise me at all. What surprises is that the percentage is that high. I have always felt, always, that if presented with the right opportunity 1/3 (33%) of Americans would vote for a far-right fascist oriented politician immediately. It now seems another 12% can be swayed by some smoke and mirrors as has always been the case in the past.

    As for the history of democracy, stable institutions and a free media you may have to reconsider the free media and change it to free internet. While I enjoy finding information on the internet about my hobbies, and talking with you fine characters, overall I could do without the internet. No matter the good intentions many of these great things ultimately get subverted.
    Turkey Fan,

    I lay this ignorance at the feet of the complete lack of civics education in our schools. We are reaping the harvest of our pivot to everything STEM and dropped civics/history/poli sci from our school curriculums. Our public school textbooks across the nation are designed and approved by the Texas State School Board...Texas gets to do this because they buy so many books they skew the market.

    We have raised 2 generations of citizens who do not know what that word means.

    Leave a comment:


  • Albany Rifles
    replied
    Originally posted by astralis View Post
    don't you recognize the SACRIFICES the Trump family have made??

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...ces-he-writes/

    It was the day before his father was inaugurated president of the United States when the weight of the office first washed over Donald Trump Jr.

    President-elect Trump and the new first family were at Arlington National Cemetery, where Trump was to lay a wreath on the Tomb of the Unknowns.

    “I rarely get emotional, if ever,” Trump Jr. wrote in his new book, “Triggered: How the Left Thrives on Hate and Wants to Silence Us.” “Yet, as we drove past the rows of white grave markers, in the gravity of the moment, I had a deep sense of the importance of the presidency and a love of our country.”

    He also had another revelation as he watched his father standing in front of the tomb, surrounded by more than 400,000 graves, listening to the Army Band bugler playing taps: The Trump family had already suffered, he recalled thinking, and this was only the beginning.

    “In that moment, I also thought of all the attacks we’d already suffered as a family, and about all the sacrifices we’d have to make to help my father succeed — voluntarily giving up a huge chunk of our business and all international deals to avoid the appearance that we were ‘profiting off the office,’” Trump Jr. wrote.


    The book bills itself as a 300-page evisceration of PC culture — “the book that leftist elites don’t want you to read,” its Amazon page twice crows. In it, Trump Jr. writes, “A victimhood complex has taken root in the American left.” Yet, in his telling, the real victim is often him, his father or another Trump family member.
    I almost threw up when I read that the other day. I swear to God I was physically nauseated...

    Leave a comment:


  • astralis
    replied
    DOR,

    I’m looking for a party that said, “We’re fascists, and proud of it!” And, then got elected legitimately.
    there's only so many examples from fascism's hey-day. there's elements of it in Orban's/Erdogan's/Putin's elections, and yes, a bit in MAGA.

    I think FDR got it wrong. His description sounds more like capitalism running amok, and by the way, the prime examples of fascism – Nazis, et al – were all in favor of private enterprise, provided it served the objectives of the ruling party / state.
    kinda, sorta. the Nazis had a hard-on for big "private" enterprises, because they viewed small business as naturally inefficient. and you had to buy-in to the Nazi philosophy the higher-up you went. sorta like Xi Jinping's idea of how businesses ought to be run, now that i think of it.
    Last edited by astralis; 12 Nov 19,, 14:17.

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  • DOR
    replied
    tbm3fan,
    Interesting point, but not mine.
    I’m looking for a party that said, “We’re fascists, and proud of it!” And, then got elected legitimately.

    Firestorm,
    I assure you I know what fascism is. Intolerant, state-first, nationalistic control, to put it in a nutshell.
    Go ahead and say whatever you like about The Trumpet. That’s not my topic in this thread.

    TopHatter,
    I think FDR got it wrong. His description sounds more like capitalism running amok, and by the way, the prime examples of fascism – Nazis, et al – were all in favor of private enterprise, provided it served the objectives of the ruling party / state.


    So, examples?

    Leave a comment:


  • TopHatter
    replied
    Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post

    Anyway it sounds to me that you are caught up in the times where it is either all far right and all left liberal. Most people I know are centrist and nowhere near left liberal but are called such. No surprise because that is exactly what the right wants by repeating ad nauseam. It has worked so well that even I believe TopHatter is a left leaning liberal...
    Heh, yeah, I get accused of that the moment I say anything less-than-obsequious about Donald Trump.
    It's rather amusing how the Enraged Kool-Aid Drinker script gets whipped out and read verbatim.

    Leave a comment:


  • tbm3fan
    replied
    Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
    The term Fascist is way too overused these days by people who don't remember and don't care what it originally meant. It has become de rigueur to delegitimize the opposition by terming them fascist/bigoted/nationalist/far right etc. by the supposedly liberal left. Trump is a despicable person and a clown who shouldn't be anywhere close to power in my opinion, but he is not a fascist. Victor Orban who has been fighting democratic elections and has spent time in power as well as in the opposition in parliament and continues to abide by Hungary's democratic rules is also not a fascist. Erdogan's case is different since he has become the de-facto dictator of Turkey having stamped out the opposition in an un-democratic manner. Lumping Orban, Bolsonaro or Trump with him is immensely problematic. The left-liberals these days believe that anyone who holds nationalistic or socially/economically conservative views must be a fascist/far right/ultra-nationalist by definition!

    I'm sure we'll soon reach a point where anyone to the right of Sanders and AoC will be termed a fascist and erstwhile liberals will find themselves as targets too. Gabbard is already persona non-grata as far as "liberals" are concerned and I wouldn't be surprised if Biden is termed too right wing in the not too distant future.
    I hope I didn't go over your head with my comment. I didn't say fascist politician but fascist oriented politician as there is a difference. Therefore all the names I listed do qualify when you take a look at the standard practices of a fascist. Some score higher in use of the techniques and some score lower but all show the tendency. Question is can outside forces/influences keep those tendencies in check. Sometimes it has and sometimes it hasn't.

    As far as one holding nationalistic views that is one aspect of fascism. Two, socially conservative views are another since most of the time the nationalistic view is to make the country great for the native people and not others. It is pretty obvious to me who Trump thinks are the chosen and who aren't. Just sayin'.

    I do spell the word with the small "f" as I am not implying the definite Fascism of Mussolini and Hitler. I also feel the word has been so overused by those for all other kinds of reasons as to now cloud what it originally defined which was an ideology that morphs. How about using Nationalism in that it is inward looking, trends towards the natives, is against change in all manner of things, and thinks it can return a nation to a former period of unquestioned superiority?

    Anyway it sounds to me that you are caught up in the times where it is either all far right and all left liberal. Most people I know are centrist and nowhere near left liberal but are called such. No surprise because that is exactly what the right wants by repeating ad nauseam. It has worked so well that even I believe TopHatter is a left leaning liberal...

    Leave a comment:


  • TopHatter
    replied
    Trump-nominated Judge dismisses Trump lawsuit against NY officials, House committee over taxes

    A federal judge on Monday issued another blow to President Donald Trump and his ongoing effort to avoid having his tax records turned over to Congress.

    U.S. Judge Carl Nichols granted a motion to dismiss a lawsuit that Trump filed in July over the TRUST Act in New York, which gave Congress the authority to retrieve tax information from New York residents.

    In granting the dismissal, he noted that the president, "has not met his burden of establishing personal jurisdiction over either of the New York Defendants."

    The president's lawsuit named the House Ways and Means Committee, New York Attorney General Letitia James and the commissioner of the New York Department of Taxation and Finance, Michael Schmidt. ABC News reported at the time that Rep. Richard Neal, D-Mass., the chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, has hesitated to use the new law to request the president's state returns.

    In their complaint, Trump's lawyers claimed that Neal had "expressed a renewed interest in utilizing" the statute.

    Nichols wrote that "such a speculative statement" about Rep. Richard Neal's "interest in utilizing" the TRUST Act "does not satisfy" the court.

    Shortly after the judge issued his ruling, New York Attorney General Letitia James released a statement applauding the decision.

    "We have said all along that this lawsuit should be dismissed and we are pleased with the court's conclusion," James said. "The TRUST Act is an important tool that will ensure accountability to millions of Americans who deserve to know the truth. We have never doubted that this law was legal, which is why we vigorously defended it from the start and will continue to do so."

    In response, the president's personal attorney, Jay Sekulow, downplayed the implications of the ruling.

    "Regarding the tax case out of DC -- we are reviewing the opinion," Sekulow said. "The case against the Ways and Means Committee proceeds in federal court."

    Sekulow was referring to a separate lawsuit with similar implications for the president' highly sought after tax information. The House Ways and Means Committee filed a lawsuit against the Trump administration seeking six years of the president's tax returns. A judge has not yet ruled on that case.
    __________

    Modified the actual headline a little to reflect an inconvenient fact to Trump followers...And another court defeat is handed to the would-be autocrat in White House.

    Leave a comment:


  • TopHatter
    replied
    Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
    The term Fascist is way too overused these days by people who don't remember and don't care what it originally meant. It has become de rigueur to delegitimize the opposition by terming them fascist/bigoted/nationalist/far right etc. by the supposedly liberal left. Trump is a despicable person and a clown who shouldn't be anywhere close to power in my opinion, but he is not a fascist. Victor Orban who has been fighting democratic elections and has spent time in power as well as in the opposition in parliament and continues to abide by Hungary's democratic rules is also not a fascist. Erdogan's case is different since he has become the de-facto dictator of Turkey having stamped out the opposition in an un-democratic manner. Lumping Orban, Bolsonaro or Trump with him is immensely problematic. The left-liberals these days believe that anyone who holds nationalistic or socially/economically conservative views must be a fascist/far right/ultra-nationalist by definition!

    I'm sure we'll soon reach a point where anyone to the right of Sanders and AoC will be termed a fascist and erstwhile liberals will find themselves as targets too. Gabbard is already persona non-grata as far as "liberals" are concerned and I wouldn't be surprised if Biden is termed too right wing in the not too distant future.
    Words of course have a way of changing meaning over time ("We'll have a gay old time!") and certainly even current political terms can be misused and deliberately twisted completely out of recognition ("Democratic People's Republic of Korea"). So describing someone as a Fascist (note the capital F) doesn't necessarily make them a devotee of Mussolini's Partito Nazionale Fascista.

    Even a small-f fascist can described in many ways. So yeah, it can be problematic. But I do feel that Trump can reasonably be described as a neo-fascist. He is of course constrained by the laws and democratic traditions of the United States. But those, let's call them at the very least authoritarian, impulses are clearly visible, rising off Trump like clouds of steam off hot asphalt after a rainstorm. Small wonder, he's been the sole proprietor of a relatively small privately-held company for the vast majority of his life, answerable to virtually no one, with a decades-long track record of flouting any law he finds inconvenient (see more below). His current courtroom defense strategy is to assert complete and total immunity from any prosecution whatsoever....including of course his famous boast of shooting someone on Fifth Avenue with impunity.

    So let's take a look at a quote from history about fascism and see if it's applicable to Trump.

    The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism — ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. ~ Franklin D. Roosevelt

    At the moment, the United States Government is almost completely in the thrall of Donald Trump. The usual checks and balances have been thrown out the window as Trump, aided and abetted by the Republicans in Congress, has consistently defied subpeonas by the House of Representatives and ordered members of the Executive Branch to do the same. A few have broken ranks, but entirely of their own accord. These outliers are immediately pilloried by Trump in public and accused of treason. It's reasonable to say that Trump's motto is "L'etat c'est moi"

    Yeah, I have no problem calling Donald Trump a neo-fascist.

    Leave a comment:


  • Firestorm
    replied
    The term Fascist is way too overused these days by people who don't remember and don't care what it originally meant. It has become de rigueur to delegitimize the opposition by terming them fascist/bigoted/nationalist/far right etc. by the supposedly liberal left. Trump is a despicable person and a clown who shouldn't be anywhere close to power in my opinion, but he is not a fascist. Victor Orban who has been fighting democratic elections and has spent time in power as well as in the opposition in parliament and continues to abide by Hungary's democratic rules is also not a fascist. Erdogan's case is different since he has become the de-facto dictator of Turkey having stamped out the opposition in an un-democratic manner. Lumping Orban, Bolsonaro or Trump with him is immensely problematic. The left-liberals these days believe that anyone who holds nationalistic or socially/economically conservative views must be a fascist/far right/ultra-nationalist by definition!

    I'm sure we'll soon reach a point where anyone to the right of Sanders and AoC will be termed a fascist and erstwhile liberals will find themselves as targets too. Gabbard is already persona non-grata as far as "liberals" are concerned and I wouldn't be surprised if Biden is termed too right wing in the not too distant future.
    Last edited by Firestorm; 11 Nov 19,, 20:47.

    Leave a comment:

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