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Las Vegas Oct 2017 mass shooting

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  • #91
    Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Usain Bolt can run circles around me while Micheal Phelps probably swims faster than I can run. Giving examples of professionals proves absolutely nothing. I hope you are not trying to say that every random dude who picks up a gun becomes a proficient shooter without hours of practice and a fortune spent in practice ammo.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
      Imagine how much worse it could have been if the GOPs gun suppressor bill was law.
      How would it have been worse? A suppressed ar-15 with supersonic rounds is going to crack at 130 dB.

      Comment


      • #93
        Again, wrong example. Operating a gun is comparatively far easier and safer compared to a rudimentary and self-concocted explosive device. It is highly possible that any such device blows up in the face of the perp (something that I am A-ok with). I used to make firecrackers (more stable than a lighted wick in a bottle of petrol) for Diwali, and quite a few of our creations blew up unexpectedly. My friends mom suffered serious hand burns from using one of our home made creations. So, not cutting it.
        "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by citanon View Post
          How would it have been worse? A suppressed ar-15 with supersonic rounds is going to crack at 130 dB.
          I can think of several scenarios in my local elementary school where this can wreak havoc and gives me a cold sweat to think about it.
          "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by antimony View Post
            Usain Bolt can run circles around me while Micheal Phelps probably swims faster than I can run. Giving examples of professionals proves absolutely nothing. I hope you are not trying to say that every random dude who picks up a gun becomes a proficient shooter without hours of practice and a fortune spent in practice ammo.
            A random dude picking up a kitchen knife could cause mass casualties:

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scho...2010–12)

            Or hammer:

            http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/12...francisco.html

            Or random tools found around the house:

            https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20.../#.WodNK5-IbZ8

            Or with trucks:

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-ramming_attack

            In fact in Xinjiang now Uhigurs have to register their kitchen knifes.

            https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyg...017161348.html

            Among other "terrific" steps aimed at "solving" the problem:



            Before we fall over ourselves to point our fingers at the tools and restrict the freedoms of law abiding citizens, how about we try to identify and actually address problems with the humans wielding them?

            In fact, we can start with actually enforcing and utilizing our existing laws!

            https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1G00T7

            A mechanism was in place to take this guys guns away and monitor him. It was activated by a tipster. No action was taken by the FBI.

            The school officials knew about the threat. The community knew about the threat. The guy was expelled because of the threat he posed. Yet no one informed local law enforcement.


            The one phone call that could have stopped this guy happened and yet the FBI dropped the ball. The second phone call to local police could have stopped this bit it never happened despite dozens of hundreds knowing about the threat.

            The FBI failed, the school failed, and the community failed.

            At the same time we saw in Washington State what happens when a family member and the community takes proactive action:

            https://www.thecut.com/2018/02/grand...-shooting.html

            American media loves to externalize the threat when it comes to violence. If we can blame guns instead of humans we feel better and the problem feels more tractable. In the wake of tragedy we like to diffuse responsibility by pointing at big amorphous impersonal strawmen instead of looking too closely at what happened in an already traumatized community.

            But if we want to reduce the actual threat, we have to take a painful look within, examine the lessons learned and get serious about detection and prevention.
            Last edited by citanon; 16 Feb 18,, 23:01.

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            • #96
              Unfortunately, FBI is too busy prioritizing using an inordinate amount of money, manpower, and resources in its never-ending quest for patsies to set up in counter-terrorism "stings", a side effect of which is that stuff like this slips through the cracks.
              "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                No, it does not even happen there. What took place here does not occur anywhere in the world. A high school kid shooting up his school.

                Think of Beslan or Peshawar those were militants attacking a school. That you don't get in the US and likely never will
                I did not mean to insult and I spoke with an overly broad brush, so my apologies.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by citanon View Post
                  A random dude picking up a kitchen knife could cause mass casualties:

                  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scho...2010–12)
                  A random dude? This was a series of events which resulted in a sum total of 25 deaths. How many would that have been if these psychos had semi-auto weapons?

                  Originally posted by citanon View Post
                  So a robbery gone bad is a mass murder now?

                  Originally posted by citanon View Post
                  Or random tools found around the house:

                  https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20.../#.WodNK5-IbZ8
                  Whats the random tool used?

                  Originally posted by citanon View Post
                  Are you willing to bring purchase of guns under the same rigor that we do for purchase of guns?

                  Originally posted by citanon View Post
                  In fact in Xinjiang now Uhigurs have to register their kitchen knifes.

                  https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyg...017161348.html

                  Among other "terrific" steps aimed at "solving" the problem:

                  Where did i mention registering guns? Go ahead and show me.


                  Originally posted by citanon View Post
                  Before we fall over ourselves to point our fingers at the tools and restrict the freedoms of law abiding citizens, how about we try to actually address problems with the humans wielding them?

                  In fact, we can start with actually enforcing and utilizing our existing laws!

                  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1G00T7
                  Yes, lets!!!

                  Let the FBI follow up every random joke and schoolyard threat to its logical place, and every broken child in every foster or mental home and bring them to their logical destination, the high security prison. But lets not do anyting about background checks.

                  Let us also conveniently ignore the fact that Trump did away with a rule that would have given the NICS system access to mental health records and would therefore have stopped many people with mental health issues from bying guns.

                  Also lets look at the statistics of your "mass murder", which I assumed you spent time in pulling together : 5+ 17 + 25. How many gun deaths happened in 2018 alone?
                  "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    I do not necessarily believe that giving teachers guns is the right thing to do. One accident and the school will be buried in legal bills that will come straight out of our kids education.

                    Putting a LE officer in a school is a step forward, but expensive.

                    Hardening the schools is another option. Someone mentioned this. A few years ago our local schools were very open, you could walk in through any number of ways. We have open-style campuses with breezeways connecting every building. Now iron fences close the gaps between buildings and the only way in is through the front admin office. You used to be able to just walk into the office, now you have to get buzzed into the office through what amounts to one way mirrors, ie they can see you pretty easy but its harder to see in. Not perfect, expensive, but it helps. The admins have to be alert and not automatically buzz someone in, but it's their necks too.

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                    • it's true that humans can mass murder with knives and with molotov cocktails or whatever is most convenient.

                      it just turns out that in the US, mass murderers tend to pick the AR-15 because it is most convenient, easily gotten, and quite effective with little training.

                      there's a reason why mass killings happen so frequently in the US compared to elsewhere.
                      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JCT View Post
                        I do not necessarily believe that giving teachers guns is the right thing to do. One accident and the school will be buried in legal bills that will come straight out of our kids education.

                        Putting a LE officer in a school is a step forward, but expensive.

                        Hardening the schools is another option. Someone mentioned this. A few years ago our local schools were very open, you could walk in through any number of ways. We have open-style campuses with breezeways connecting every building. Now iron fences close the gaps between buildings and the only way in is through the front admin office. You used to be able to just walk into the office, now you have to get buzzed into the office through what amounts to one way mirrors, ie they can see you pretty easy but its harder to see in. Not perfect, expensive, but it helps. The admins have to be alert and not automatically buzz someone in, but it's their necks too.
                        I think if a teacher or administrator were to be armed he/she would need to be trained to at least the level of a reserve LEO, there would have to be more than one at the school, and careful procedures would have to be worked out regarding storage of the firearms and coordination with law enforcement.

                        A lot of details to work through but maybe worth it if a community was willing.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                          Usain Bolt can run circles around me while Micheal Phelps probably swims faster than I can run. Giving examples of professionals proves absolutely nothing. I hope you are not trying to say that every random dude who picks up a gun becomes a proficient shooter without hours of practice and a fortune spent in practice ammo.
                          What are you talking about? How many hours of practice do you need with a .3030 or .223? Or even a .22short? And you know what is scary about lever and bolt actions, far more than automatics? It forces you to make the shot instead of taking the shot. Hell, we don't use handheld autos for the very fact that you can't control the climb. No such thing with lever or bolt actions.

                          Originally posted by antimony View Post
                          Again, wrong example. Operating a gun is comparatively far easier and safer compared to a rudimentary and self-concocted explosive device. It is highly possible that any such device blows up in the face of the perp (something that I am A-ok with). I used to make firecrackers (more stable than a lighted wick in a bottle of petrol) for Diwali, and quite a few of our creations blew up unexpectedly. My friends mom suffered serious hand burns from using one of our home made creations. So, not cutting it.
                          Are you joking me? We have over 200 million Americans who can fill up a gas tank and can get it anywhere in the US. In fact, that is one of the ways that scares the hell out of me. It doesn't take brains to spill gas and light it. The only thing stopping its spread is the lack of the cool factor.

                          I like Kato's suggestion. All classrooms have firedoors. They can take a hell of a lot of punishment. Locked and the AR-15 ain't getting through to do harm. What scares me is what the idiot can do with gasoline.
                          Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 17 Feb 18,, 00:06.
                          Chimo

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                          • OK...so where are all the regular mass murders by fire across the world?
                            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by citanon View Post
                              How would it have been worse? A suppressed ar-15 with supersonic rounds is going to crack at 130 dB.
                              which is a whole lot quieter than unsuppressed .223/5.56 at 157db. Remember every 3db = a doubling of the loudness to the ear. And 30/50 feet down the hall in a classroom its not going to sound like a gunshot at all.

                              The quicker the noise can be identified, the more response time to lock doors get kids out.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                                OK...so where are all the regular mass murders by fire across the world?
                                IEDs in Iraq and Afghanistan.

                                And this goes to my point. You are all looking at the symptons, not the disease. Getting rid of firearms would not have cured this kid of his murder rage. He was just too stupid to find something more effective.

                                AK47s were ineffective against US troops and the insurgents switched something else that was effective and their associated cool factor rose. Getting rid of automatic firearms would only increase the cool factor of other lethal means, not stop the desire to murder.

                                Edit: I will give you a big one. 11 September.
                                Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 17 Feb 18,, 00:54.
                                Chimo

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