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  • #76
    Originally posted by astralis

    you'll need to explain then why we aren't the safest society around then given this.
    The group that has the most guns (white males) is on a per capita basis under-represented in every category of murder despite having more guns than any other identifiable population on the planet. The group most likely to commit gun violence is the least likely to have them legally (minority male juveniles). Murder is a heart problem, how many guns would you need to own before you turned into a killer? I'm guessing there isn't a number becuase yuor heart isn't bent on killing. In Nice France a jihadi used a truck to kill 86. Do you propose we ban cargo vans?
    Last edited by astralis; 16 Feb 18,, 15:26. Reason: clean up quote macro

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    • #77
      Originally posted by InfiniteDreams View Post

      Teachers should not be 'forced' into this role if they are uncomfortable with it.

      However, those that do want to take up the cause and volunteer, and can also prove themselves proficient (with training & testing), and of sound judgement by all means let them.


      My son's teacher will not bring a gun into the classroom. I do not care how "comfortable" he is with a pistol or not, nor how adamant a protector of the 2st Amendment he is.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        Norway, Iceland (!) or Germany & Austria are countries i think of as being in the top 5 when it comes to gun ownership
        In Scandinavian countries (Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Finland, to a lesser extent Denmark) there's a very strong culture of hunters which own almost all legal weapons - typically close to 10% of the population are registered hunters who own 2-3 weapons each.

        In Central European countries you have this same hunting culture only in rural areas, which typically comes out to around 1.0-1.5% registered hunters in the overall population depending on how urbanized the country is; in these countries hunters typically only hold one-third of legal firearms at most. Gun ownership then tends to vary widely within the country between urban and rural areas - in Germany this goes from 1.3 firearms per 100 people in Berlin to 9.5 firearms per 100 people in Rhineland-Palatinate (i.e. over 7 times as many).
        In these countries however you also usually have a relatively large proportion of either sports shooters or "home defense" people who bring the number of households with firearms up by another 10-15% - it's mostly just how it's designated that changes with local law, ownership numbers are independent of that. Most European Union countries therefore end up at around 12-16% of households legally holding weapons pretty much across the board unless local firearms laws are particularly restrictive (e.g. UK, Netherlands).

        Originally posted by InfiniteDreams View Post
        If Americans can find a solution like securing the classroom, and preventing deaths I'm all for it, whether or not that means guns or no guns are needed to prevent child deaths.
        The practical solution with regard to school shootings over here has always been to have teachers lock doors and move the kids and themselves out of the firing line while keeping them under control. Remove the targets from the target-rich environment. That's from experience from some of the first school shootings over here - before WW1 - in which there were e.g. kids evacuated out of the building (only for the shooter to find a window and randomly fire in the schoolyard) and in one case a fleeing girl e.g. tripped and broke her neck falling down some stairs, whereas in the same incidents teachers who kept their classes locked up in their rooms and under control brought them through the situation just fine even with the shooter trying to break into the rooms.

        There was one case where that didn't work - in the 60s - but that one involved a former soldier with a flamethrower and a lance who fired through two open windows into classrooms and then stabbed those fleeing out of the building.

        Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
        As someone that owns a number of firearms and shoots regularly, I have no issue at all with requiring a little demonstration of personal responsibility and at least a modicum of competence before someone is allowed operate dangerous equipment of any kind, guns included.
        Beyond operation: I am personally of the opinion that the low number of suicides using firearms in Germany - one-third the numbers per firearm in the US or France - is mostly a result of the relatively tight laws on gun storage here. More than any other factor at least.
        Last edited by kato; 16 Feb 18,, 06:34.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by JCT View Post
          I used to be starkly anti-gun control, but the last few years have caused me to rethink this position. AR-15s and their ilk are really fun to shoot, but what else are they really good for beyond killing people? The round is too light for bigger game and if you need more than a round or two when hunting, you need to spend more time on the range before you hit the woods. Yes, there are uppers with larger calibers, but again, you shouldn't need a magazine of ammo to hunt. The deer do not shoot back. An 'old style' hunting rifle should work just fine and it looks much more elegant. The AR-15 is not a particularly good weapon for home defense, even the sort barreled versions are too long for use inside the house and the rounds travel too far, even after they've hit your perp. I do not see the need for civilians to own one. If you want to shoot one, go to your local range, renting it will probably cost nothing more than buying the ammo (not positive about this - it was true for the 9mm pistol I used on the range.)

          No need for bump stocks - they out to be outlawed as an illegal by-pass of the automatic weapons laws.

          I'm tired of listening to the news about these endless mass shootings. I'm embarrassed that our great country has this problem that is more akin to something that you would see in the Middle East or other 3rd world country. I'm afraid for my kids at their school - a local middle school kid was arrested for having a 'hit list'. Nothing came out of it, but the kids have passed on persistent rumors that other hit lists have been drawn up, thankfully not at their school.

          We have to do something. We stopped funding local mental hospitals years ago and pushed the disturbed into the streets. Even if we went back, funded the hospitals, put the crazies into them, it wouldn't stop the crimes of passion that are enabled by too easy access to weapons that can easily kill dozens at a time. The assault rifles have to go. Automatic pistols should be heavily regulated and probably left to professional LE only. Let them be found at licensed ranges where people can get 'shoot' out. You can go to the range a lot for the cost of a $1500 AR-15. Let people keep their long rifles, revolvers, and shotguns. That will fulfill basic self-defense, sport, and recreation uses while reducing these tragedies.
          I completely agree
          Last edited by Goatboy; 16 Feb 18,, 07:14. Reason: typo

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          • #80
            Originally posted by kato View Post
            The practical solution with regard to school shootings over here has always been to have teachers lock doors and move the kids and themselves out of the firing line while keeping them under control. Remove the targets from the target-rich environment. That's from experience from some of the first school shootings over here - before WW1 - in which there were e.g. kids evacuated out of the building (only for the shooter to find a window and randomly fire in the schoolyard) and in one case a fleeing girl e.g. tripped and broke her neck falling down some stairs, whereas in the same incidents teachers who kept their classes locked up in their rooms and under control brought them through the situation just fine even with the shooter trying to break into the rooms.

            There was one case where that didn't work - in the 60s - but that one involved a former soldier with a flamethrower and a lance who fired through two open windows into classrooms and then stabbed those fleeing out of the building.


            Beyond operation: I am personally of the opinion that the low number of suicides using firearms in Germany - one-third the numbers per firearm in the US or France - is mostly a result of the relatively tight laws on gun storage here. More than any other factor at least.


            If you spoke and qualified these sentiments at an NRA convention, I'd attend, and that'd be the only way I'd attend. Unfortunately, in my country growth and insight on this issue is woefully lacking.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by zraver View Post


              Find volunteers, train them to not be sketchy, maybe make them reserve officers. In all the mass shootings, there is only one that I know of had the shooter taking fire and continuing on. The idea of arming teachers isn't to have a gun fight in a crowded hall (though it couldn't be worse than whats already happening), its to deter the killer by making the target hard instead of soft.
              There are some ludicrous ideas out there but this one tops them all. No surprise. Obviously you don't know a LOT of teachers. Yet I suppose you have done a poll asking how many of them would be comfortable carrying a gun. My poll, based on my association with dozens of teachers from grade 1 to grade 12, would be a resounding no. Yep, my little 60 year old Japanese teacher, who teaches Japanese in high school, can't wait to carry. My newly hired 25 year old in her first job teaching 3rg graders is thrilled to carry.

              Volunteers? You're kidding right? By the time one thoroughly vetted these volunteers you would be left with few. Their mental status would be the first thing that concerns me and their desire to carry a gun as a volunteer. Besides, I've seen big talk from those who aspire to be volunteers. In the end it was just that big talk wanna bees. Anyone who was able body and thoroughly qualified would no doubt have a job elsewhere.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                Just like air marshals you don't know who is armed... maybe its the math teacher, maybe its the janitor you just never know.
                Does not work. I may meet an Air marshall once in a flight. If I am a student I live, study and work with them 8 hours a day or more. With a few hundred snooping eyes around, not only will students know who these teachers are, they will instagram the exact moment there is an accidental exposure.

                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                No, the idea is not to make them a reaction force, but to harden and defend the space where they are. By carrying concealed you harden the target. Retrofit outwardly opening doors with locks and bullet resistant glass to class rooms locked entry ways.
                The armed shooter, who is a student/teacher/school district official/school employee, conceal carries inside the school. He gets inside the class, shoots the teacher for good measure, closes the door and starts spraying. Please "harden and defend" this situation.

                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                Nope, in the history of mass shootings there is only one example of a shooter engaging with security at the start of an attack. Teachers are already targeted off the bat.
                Wishful thinking much? You are a miitary man, why is it difficult for you to envisage that shooters will take care of the armed folks first? What would you do if you were to attack an armed compound? Also, kids have killed over a pair of shoes, and you are telling me that they would stay off a much more expensive item.

                Also, no teacher volunteered. your move.

                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                If no laws were broken, the school, district no different than any other case of accidental injury.
                Tell that to the teacher, who is now broke while paying legal fees.

                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                Its a matter of cost. You can equip and train and teacher for $1000 a year. A decent security guard would cost north of $60K for one person.
                A decent, reliable concealed carry weapon, will be around 500. I would expect at least 4 training sessions a year. Each of those cost anything between 300-500. We are already talking at least 2500 per armed schol employee. I would expect at least 4 per school, given they are not dedicated to the task.

                Let's put it on a refrendum and see who wins. I know how folks in my school district will vote.
                Last edited by antimony; 16 Feb 18,, 15:26.
                "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by JCT View Post
                  I used to be starkly anti-gun control, but the last few years have caused me to rethink this position. AR-15s and their ilk are really fun to shoot, but what else are they really good for beyond killing people? The round is too light for bigger game and if you need more than a round or two when hunting, you need to spend more time on the range before you hit the woods. Yes, there are uppers with larger calibers, but again, you shouldn't need a magazine of ammo to hunt. The deer do not shoot back. An 'old style' hunting rifle should work just fine and it looks much more elegant. The AR-15 is not a particularly good weapon for home defense, even the sort barreled versions are too long for use inside the house and the rounds travel too far, even after they've hit your perp. I do not see the need for civilians to own one. If you want to shoot one, go to your local range, renting it will probably cost nothing more than buying the ammo (not positive about this - it was true for the 9mm pistol I used on the range.)

                  No need for bump stocks - they out to be outlawed as an illegal by-pass of the automatic weapons laws.

                  I'm tired of listening to the news about these endless mass shootings. I'm embarrassed that our great country has this problem that is more akin to something that you would see in the Middle East or other 3rd world country. I'm afraid for my kids at their school - a local middle school kid was arrested for having a 'hit list'. Nothing came out of it, but the kids have passed on persistent rumors that other hit lists have been drawn up, thankfully not at their school.

                  We have to do something. We stopped funding local mental hospitals years ago and pushed the disturbed into the streets. Even if we went back, funded the hospitals, put the crazies into them, it wouldn't stop the crimes of passion that are enabled by too easy access to weapons that can easily kill dozens at a time. The assault rifles have to go. Automatic pistols should be heavily regulated and probably left to professional LE only. Let them be found at licensed ranges where people can get 'shoot' out. You can go to the range a lot for the cost of a $1500 AR-15. Let people keep their long rifles, revolvers, and shotguns. That will fulfill basic self-defense, sport, and recreation uses while reducing these tragedies.
                  Great post and as a gun owner/enthusiast/ collector, I concur. I get the fun part of guns and I suspect that a lot o people quoting the 2A basically want to protect their hobbies. I would go a step further. None of this assault weapon bullshit; ban all semi auto rifles, period. I would have to give up my AR and AK, which would be ok if that can buy my kids safety.
                  "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by zraver View Post
                    The group that has the most guns (white males) is on a per capita basis under-represented in every category of murder despite having more guns than any other identifiable population on the planet. The group most likely to commit gun violence is the least likely to have them legally (minority male juveniles). Murder is a heart problem, how many guns would you need to own before you turned into a killer? I'm guessing there isn't a number becuase yuor heart isn't bent on killing. In Nice France a jihadi used a truck to kill 86. Do you propose we ban cargo vans?
                    Since you want to go all race and minority, the group that has the most guns (white males) is overly represented in mass shootings, especially school shootings. They are also more likely to run around trees wearing funny clothes. Coincidence?
                    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      The group that has the most guns (white males) is on a per capita basis under-represented in every category of murder despite having more guns than any other identifiable population on the planet. The group most likely to commit gun violence is the least likely to have them legally (minority male juveniles). Murder is a heart problem, how many guns would you need to own before you turned into a killer? I'm guessing there isn't a number becuase yuor heart isn't bent on killing. In Nice France a jihadi used a truck to kill 86. Do you propose we ban cargo vans?
                      that still doesn't answer my question, though.

                      if "an armed society makes a polite society", and having guns deters murders and crimes, how is it that the country with the highest level of gun ownership and most number of guns isn't the safest society?

                      the whole point of this arm-a-teacher idea is that by the mere presence of guns, the evil-doer will be at least partially deterred. why is this not working for society as a whole?
                      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by antimony View Post
                        Great post and as a gun owner/enthusiast/ collector, I concur. I get the fun part of guns and I suspect that a lot o people quoting the 2A basically want to protect their hobbies. I would go a step further. None of this assault weapon bullshit; ban all semi auto rifles, period. I would have to give up my AR and AK, which would be ok if that can buy my kids safety.
                        Chimo

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                        • #87
                          https://www.google.ca/search?q=molotov+cocktail+attacks
                          Chimo

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by kato View Post
                            In Scandinavian countries (Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Finland, to a lesser extent Denmark) there's a very strong culture of hunters which own almost all legal weapons - typically close to 10% of the population are registered hunters who own 2-3 weapons each.

                            In Central European countries you have this same hunting culture only in rural areas, which typically comes out to around 1.0-1.5% registered hunters in the overall population depending on how urbanized the country is; in these countries hunters typically only hold one-third of legal firearms at most. Gun ownership then tends to vary widely within the country between urban and rural areas - in Germany this goes from 1.3 firearms per 100 people in Berlin to 9.5 firearms per 100 people in Rhineland-Palatinate (i.e. over 7 times as many).
                            In these countries however you also usually have a relatively large proportion of either sports shooters or "home defense" people who bring the number of households with firearms up by another 10-15% - it's mostly just how it's designated that changes with local law, ownership numbers are independent of that. Most European Union countries therefore end up at around 12-16% of households legally holding weapons pretty much across the board unless local firearms laws are particularly restrictive (e.g. UK, Netherlands).
                            yeah, hunters would explain it, even for Canada

                            Nothing to hunt in the desert, in Israel. lol
                            Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Feb 18,, 17:45.

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                            • #89
                              Imagine how much worse it could have been if the GOPs gun suppressor bill was law.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by astralis View Post
                                that still doesn't answer my question, though.

                                if "an armed society makes a polite society", and having guns deters murders and crimes, how is it that the country with the highest level of gun ownership and most number of guns isn't the safest society?

                                the whole point of this arm-a-teacher idea is that by the mere presence of guns, the evil-doer will be at least partially deterred. why is this not working for society as a whole?
                                Soft targets for mass killers should have proper security. If teachers volunteer to provide that, they should be given the proper vetting, training and equipment, but the right procedures wrt storing and securing the weapons need to be worked out.
                                Last edited by citanon; 16 Feb 18,, 22:23.

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