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Las Vegas Oct 2017 mass shooting

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  • A complete mischaracterization of what I said and believe.

    Maybe I should have also said, "there needs to be improvements and I'm hopeful and optimistic that there will be improvements."

    I'll just leave it at that and exit the discussion.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 01 Apr 18,, 14:17.
    "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by citanon View Post
      This is exactly what makes me deeply uncomfortable about this case.

      That and something else: In a society that purports to care deeply about civil liberties and where both the left and right believe freedom to be in peril, this highly ambiguous case has incited no serious controversy or debate after being reported on the front page of CNN. Not even a thread on reddit that I can find besides r/China.

      I find the lack of attention really spooky.

      Listen to the police Chief in the CNN videos:

      https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/31/us/fl...ted/index.html

      We talk about Japanese internment in WWII like it could never happen again, and yet, in 2018, you push the right buttons, find the right target group, and, not a peep. No one even realizes there might be something of concern.
      You forget something. His father who can afford to give his kid a $68,000 car isn't hiring any lawyers to keep his kid in the US. He's part of the process of getting his kid's ass back home to be punished.
      Chimo

      Comment


      • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
        You forget something. His father who can afford to give his kid a $68,000 car isn't hiring any lawyers to keep his kid in the US. He's part of the process of getting his kid's ass back home to be punished.
        That might be true Col, but it doesn't change the potential damage being done here to our system of justice.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by citanon View Post
          That might be true Col, but it doesn't change the potential damage being done here to our system of justice.
          I fail to see the damage though. There was nothing illegal about it albeit the media attention is disugusting. He was not being jailed for owning firearms but being deported for breaking his visa. I failed to see where his rights were violated.
          Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 01 Apr 18,, 20:15.
          Chimo

          Comment


          • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
            I fail to see the damage though. There was nothing illegal about it albeit the media attention is disugusting. He was not being jailed for owning firearms but being deported for breaking his visa. I failed to see where his rights were violated.
            Apparently, normally the procedure for this type of thing is a slow administrative process with many warnings and hearings before the Visa is revoked. You can imagine that failing to show up to class happens often amongst foreign students and if the administrative procedures were draconian, it would seriously harm foreign student programs.

            However, in this case, the police used the "red flags" as justification to speed up the visa revocation process to an extraordinary extent. In essence, the way the law was administered in this case was completely changed by perceived red flags in his behavior.

            The Fox report says:

            Wenliang Sun, 26, violated the terms of his F-1 visa by not attending classes, police said -- an offense that would normally lead to a slow process of notices and warnings.

            But officials said he was fast-tracked for deportation because of a series of sudden "red flags," including dyeing his hair blond, alarming his roommates, and buying a $70,000 Chevrolet Corvette in cash with his father's money.
            The police chief is on video saying at the press conference, in a very deliberate and authoritative manner:

            We just saved a bunch of lives. There's no doubt about it.
            The Orlando Sentinel article, which I forgot to link is here:

            http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...329-story.html

            http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...330-story.html

            When Richard Blankenship met his new roommate last August, he was struck by how quiet he was. The roommate, an international student from China, mostly kept to himself, but Blankenship thought he was harmless.

            That all changed one Sunday last November. While Blankenship and his girlfriend were sitting down to have dinner, his roommate, Wenliang Sun, walked into the living room with a newly purchased and fully loaded LWRC 300 Blackout rifle, Blankenship said.

            He said Sun chambered a round, pointed the rifle at the wall they shared with their neighbors and said, “Hey, look what I just got.”

            “After that, I didn’t feel safe,” Blankenship said. “If my friends make him angry, he can literally just walk out of his room and one, two, we’re done.

            While Sun went back into his room and locked his door, Blankenship packed his bags and went to live with a friend for the rest of the week. Before he left, he called a police non-emergency number and told them his concerns.

            Months later, Sun, 26, would be detained by federal authorities for not attending class — a requirement of his student visa. A judge ordered him deported back to China; and he’s in a federal detention center.

            Although he made no specific threats against the University of Central Florida or student body, authorities said he exhibited a pattern of “disturbing” behavior, which included changing his appearance, paying nearly $70,000 cash for a new car and buying two military-style rifles.

            “In my mind, something very bad was going to happen somewhere in Central Florida,” UCF Police Chief Richard Beary said at a news conference Thursday.

            Blankenship said he only talked with Sun for a few minutes at a time. Most of the day, Sun would stay in his locked room — playing video games, watching YouTube videos or listening to loud music.

            Two police officers spoke with Blankenship after his initial call. There was nothing they could do, they said, because Sun made no threats and the guns were legally purchased — the law allows those carrying non-immigrant visas to purchase weapons as long as they have hunting licenses, which Sun did.
            Also below (my comments in quotes):

            Wenliang Sun, 26, came to the attention of UCF Police after university staff reported a “dramatic change” in his appearance and behavior — including spending nearly $70,000 cash on a new car “out of the blue” — the university said in a news release.

            Officials acknowledged Thursday that Sun never made threats against the university or student body. Instead, police became concerned after noticing several “red flags” about his behavior, UCFPD Chief Richard Beary said.

            “That’s the interesting thing in this case — there were no specific threats,” Beary (the police chief) said. “It may not be any one thing, but when you start adding pieces together, there is cause for concern.”

            Police began investigating Sun in early February after he made “unusual statements” to a school counselor, according to a police report. Because medical and mental health information is confidential, authorities would not elaborate on the nature of the statements.

            A detective interviewed Sun on Feb. 2, and Sun confirmed that he owned an assault-style rifle and ammunition, which he kept in a storage facility due to guns not being allowed at his off-campus apartment complex, The Verge on Jefferson Commons Circle, police said.

            Sun told police that he never took it shooting, saying he only liked to “play with it and look at it,” according to a police report.

            Detectives then asked Sun about the new Chevrolet Corvette he bought with $68,000 cash. Sun told them, “In my country, that is a cheap car,” according to a police report. Text messages released by UCFPD indicated Sun’s father provided the money for the car.

            The detective also noticed that Sun had dyed his hair blond.

            “If you go back to some of the shooting incidents across the country, we know that people often change their appearance,” Beary said. “On its own, dying your hair is not a big deal, but when we add it together with all of the other things we’ve seen — another big red flag.”

            When asked whether he wanted to harm himself or anybody else, Sun said no, but police were concerned that he referred to his weapon as a “sniper rifle” instead of a “hunting rifle,” Beary said. (he had an LWRC Ar-15)

            Days after the interview, he bought a second gun: a .308 caliber rifle, along with a bipod and expensive optics, Beary said. He used that gun for target practice at Machine Gun America. (A Ruger Precision Rifle, currently one of the hottest selling target shooting rifles in America. It is normally used with a bipod and expensive optics)

            UCF Police had already contacted the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, as well as federal customs and homeland security officials, who began investigating, officials said.

            Both guns were purchased legally, as federal law allows non-immigrant visa holders to own firearms if they also carry a hunting license, which Sun did. He had been participating in an academic and cultural program for international students at UCF.
            guns
            Police said their concerns increased after Sun bought a .308 caliber rifle with a bipod and expensive optics, UCFPD Chief Richard Beary said. (UCF Police Department)

            Sun’s non-immigrant status was later revoked due to an issue unrelated to his gun purchases: He was not attending classes but was required to do so in order to maintain his visa, officials said.

            Once his status was revoked, owning the guns became illegal, the university said. Sun was taken into custody Feb. 7 by federal agents for violating the terms of his admission to the country and potential violations of federal firearms laws, according to the statement.

            Immigration officials said the proceedings wouldn’t have happened so quickly had Sun not bought the weapons and acted strangely.

            “Under normal circumstances, it probably would not have moved that quickly,” said Tim Dwyer, an official with the Department of Homeland Security. “He probably would’ve been placed on notice, and we would have issued him a notice to appear, indicating that he would need to go before an immigration judge and deal with his status — or lack thereof.”


            Although Sun never made specific threats, Beary said that his detention might have saved lives. “Some of the [investigators] with a lot of years of experience … walked away and said, ‘we just saved a bunch of lives,’ ” Beary said. “There’s no doubt about it.”

            An immigration judge on March 21 ordered that Sun be sent back to China. He may not return to the United States for at least 10 years, officials said.

            Despite the fact that Sun is only accused of violating the terms of his visa, immigration lawyer Henry Lim said that’s all the government needs to begin deportation.

            “As soon as they pull out of compliance, the government is within its right to begin deportation proceedings,” Lim said.

            Lim added he was curious about whether the government gave Sun the chance to voluntarily leave before ordering his deportation. A voluntary departure would have allowed Sun to return within 10 years.
            BTW, shooting is a big draw for younger Chinese tourists in the US. Although target shooting facilities are available in the mainland, they cost tens of hundreds of thousands per year in membership and usage fees. Last year, I actually ran into some very pregnant Chinese ladies and their husbands at a local shooting range who were very excited to be able to experience shooting guns.
            Last edited by citanon; 01 Apr 18,, 21:07.

            Comment


            • The young gentleman could have challenged the proceedings and present his case before the judge. He did not. I strongly suspect his father did not know about car and firearms and was dragging his ass back to China no matter what.
              Chimo

              Comment


              • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                The young gentleman could have challenged the proceedings and present his case before the judge. He did not. I strongly suspect his father did not know about car and firearms and was dragging his ass back to China no matter what.
                His dad gave him the money for the car. The text messages showed.

                I wonder if his dad isn't thinking that he has to rescue his son from racist Nazi American cops and get him safely home ASAP. This might have been punishment but it might also have been, in his parents' mind, a hostage extraction from scary America where paranoid cops are shooting everybody.

                Either way as a result, the police chief is getting away with dragging a guy onto the front page of CNN as the next mass shooter, for dying his hair blond (as a Chinese guy), buying a Corvette, not talking to his roommates, and buying a couple of really popular guns.

                He never threatened the school.
                He told them he doesn't want to harm anyone.
                They could not even find anything threatening on his private computer or cell phone.
                He got a hunting license to buy the guns.
                FFS He even followed his apartment's rules and stored the guns off site.
                The AR he didn't even shoot (btw that LWRC really IS a beautiful gun) and the one he did shoot was a bolt action 10 pounder designed for bench shooting with a bipod and a scope, which they layered on as evidence of his guilt.

                Sure, his own fault for not attending class, but now he's being publicized as a the next mass murderer for the academic equivalent of jaywalking.

                The police chief didn't even add the benefit of the doubt of potential mass murderer. He said "certain" that they saved a lot of lives. So a guy who followed every rule down to apartment regs is a "certain" mass murderer because he dyed his hair and bought a Corvette?

                This rubs me as all sorts wrong.
                Last edited by citanon; 01 Apr 18,, 21:30.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by citanon View Post
                  This rubs me as all sorts wrong.
                  I see your point. However, I would interject that he was availed to due process and he had the oppertunity to defend himself. The fact he chosed not to put up a defence does not strike me as liberty denied.
                  Chimo

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                  • I must agree with citanon - especially after the revelation that shooting guns is such a novelty to the Chinese.

                    Comment


                    • There's a bit of culture clash here. Personal responsibility is not exactly well developed with China Chinese students. Spoiled, entitled, priviledged would be the right words. My mother rented a house to China Chinese students once. Never again. They leave the front door unlock all the time. When they inevitably get robbed, they tried to get my mother to pay with her insurance. Then they tried to get her to pay for hail damage because we didn't provide their expensive cars with a garage. Keeping the house clean? It's like living in a pig pen. Dog and cat urine and fecess marks everywhere.

                      The kid did have the rifle in his room once before he was told to get it out. He had chambered a round and aimed it against a wall with who knows what's the other side. That's reckless endangerment. This kid is entitled and spoiled. $68,000 car on the spot and no worries of insurance and gas money.

                      He was given the privledge of firearm ownership but had no clue to its responsibilities and frankly, I don't think he cared. He just wanted to be tacticool. I don't know if he really intended to hurt someone or not but when presented with someone who couldn't care less about firearm responsibilites, those are the red flags that I would be concerned about.
                      Chimo

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by citanon View Post
                        Invalidation of the Visa is an administrative action that usually proceeds very differently from what was done here.



                        That's a circular argument



                        He's perfectly normal in this belief. Large numbers of Chinese students are wealthy enough to pay for very fancy cars. A colleague's street has high school kids with Range Rovers, Lamborghinis and Rolls Royces. A $70,000 car doesn't even register as expensive amongst some young Chinese expats, at least not in California.



                        Written like someone with true disregard for civil liberties.
                        Without the proper visa, it is illegal to own a gun.
                        Please explain in words that even you can understand what's so circular about that argument.
                        Trust me?
                        I'm an economist!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DOR View Post
                          Without the proper visa, it is illegal to own a gun.
                          Strawman arguement. He had the legal paperwork to own those firearms. He had to get a hunting license before he can purchase the firearms and he did.

                          However, Citinon's point was that his firearms were legal until the judge revoked his visa and not before.
                          Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 02 Apr 18,, 15:55.
                          Chimo

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                          • http://www.dw.com/en/active-shooter-...ers/a-43242227

                            Active shooter reported at Youtube headquarters

                            YouTube employees reported there was an active shooter at their headquarters in San Bruno, near San Francisco, on Tuesday.

                            Alphabet Inc's Google said in a statement it was investigating a possible gun fire incident at the Youtube offices.

                            Local police posted on social media that they were attending the scene and told people to keep away.
                            "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

                            Comment


                            • Wife was reading up on this just a moment ago since it is our region. I hear her tell someone that the suspected shooter is a white female just a moment ago...?

                              Comment


                              • A woman of Persian descent, I guess.

                                To add some context to my previous comments on the problems with the state of policing in the US....
                                • many police (especially in urban areas) don't live in the communities they work in
                                • many, if not most urban cops in the US are suburban residents who commute to work in the city
                                • the overwhelming majority of cops patrol from vehicles
                                • most urban police should be living in the communities/neighborhoods they serve, and
                                • many if not most of these police should be walking the beat
                                • perhaps at most half of police should be patrolling in vehicles
                                • walking the beat and living in the neighborhood they serve allows police to get to directly know the individuals in the community they're working with, as they actually would be a member of that community
                                • physical presence of police on a block is more of a deterrent than some guy who shows up in a car however many minutes/hours later
                                • being a member of the community they serve allows police to build up trust and rapport with the locals, "he's one of us"
                                • the remainder who are vehicle-borne should be re-constituted as a "rapid response unit"

                                There's other things I could list, and the list could go on for days. Those are just some of the basics.
                                "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

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