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Las Vegas Oct 2017 mass shooting

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  • Originally posted by Monash View Post
    I'll have to find it but an article I read a couple of days ago referenced a survey of some 1400 licences firearm owners in the US which stated that almost half those surveyed did not securely store their firearms in the home. No safes, no trigger locks, nothing.
    No one has yet to figure out how to outlaw stupidity. It would have saved this world a whole bunch of problems.
    Chimo

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    • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
      A curiously scan of List of school shootings in the United States - Wikipedia even in the 2010s often do not include ARs nor AKs and more than a significant percentage were insecured pistols from home.

      It would seemed irresponsible firearm ownership is more at play than high capacity mag availability.
      Sir, I totally agree with you. I'm not so much in favor of banning anything outright (I like to shoot them), but want to see these killings stop. What do we need to fix? The media's fascination with these events, leading to copy cats? Mental health care? Restoration of the nuclear family? What's the root cause? Can it be determined? Pundits on both sides claim to have the answer, but mostly their hot air just obscures the problem.

      Locking up the weapons is a poor attempt at removing the enablers. But if, as a society, we cannot identify why these are seemingly occurring more often (and someone will probably quote a statistic on why that's not true - but numbers are easily made to lie) or even harder, fix the problem, then we need to remove the tools by which people are using to create these tragedies.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
        Second,pardon the brutality,but why so emotional about 17 people?It's bad,nobody desires that,but don't tell me you have nightmares about people you don't know.It is a tragedy that triggers emotions when it involves people one knows.
        The comment about rights and privileges is different but this one about th death of 17 unknown people is plain weird. Do you have kids? I do. And I worry that some nutjob is ging to come in to their schools with a gun. Probabiity too low, you say? Just a few days back, after the Parkland Massacre, the police foiled a possible mass shooting by another of these kids in a school district near my home. For those of us with kids in the USA, this is a very real threat

        Fortify the school, you say? Have you seen the schools? They are not a single building with a single point of entry. In most cases they are mix of separate building and portables with large courtyards between them. Even the main buildings have multiple points of entry and usually have at least one door or accessway open for visitors.
        "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JCT View Post
          Sir, I totally agree with you. I'm not so much in favor of banning anything outright (I like to shoot them), but want to see these killings stop. What do we need to fix? The media's fascination with these events, leading to copy cats? Mental health care? Restoration of the nuclear family? What's the root cause? Can it be determined? Pundits on both sides claim to have the answer, but mostly their hot air just obscures the problem.
          I don't know the answers and frankly, I don't even know what the problem is. Until we can identify the problem, we're just blindmen looking for a princess in a whorehouse.
          Originally posted by JCT View Post
          Locking up the weapons is a poor attempt at removing the enablers. But if, as a society, we cannot identify why these are seemingly occurring more often (and someone will probably quote a statistic on why that's not true - but numbers are easily made to lie) or even harder, fix the problem, then we need to remove the tools by which people are using to create these tragedies.
          Rightly or wrongly, the 2A is in your Constitution. If Americans believe that reducing Constitutional Rights is the way to go, then they should go through the painful process of adding an Amendment. It won't be easy. It should not be easy. If saving your children is worth giving up your firearms, then it is worth going through all the legal hassles of doing so. Otherwise, your Constitution and your Oaths to it means squat.

          Originally posted by antimony View Post
          Fortify the school, you say? Have you seen the schools? They are not a single building with a single point of entry. In most cases they are mix of separate building and portables with large courtyards between them. Even the main buildings have multiple points of entry and usually have at least one door or accessway open for visitors.
          You're talking to military men. Monitor the perimeter and patrol the grounds. In practical terms, cameras outside watching the fence line. Cameras inside watching the entrances and exits. And the Custodians walking around making sure all the doors are shut after the start of the school day and can only be open via the panic bar to go out. Anyone going out would be caught on camera and the custodian can go shut the door again. And the offending student be sitting in detention.
          Chimo

          Comment


          • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
            You're talking to military men. Monitor the perimeter and patrol the grounds. In practical terms, cameras outside watching the fence line. Cameras inside watching the entrances and exits. And the Custodians walking around making sure all the doors are shut after the start of the school day and can only be open via the panic bar to go out. Anyone going out would be caught on camera and the custodian can go shut the door again. And the offending student be sitting in detention.
            You have said enough here to make me believe that monitoring and patrolling would do zilch. Schools are not built as fortresses. They are built on open plans to make moving between areas easier. Typically at least one door is kept open in the main building. Most doors are not fortified anyway.

            At the very minimum, we need one armed guard per exit and strengthened doors. Let's give them that. What happens to outside building and portables? Their doors (for some) may be strong but the walls are not bulletproof. Are the kids in them expendable?

            Also, killers on the loose do not fear detention.
            "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

            Comment


            • Banks with armed guards still get robbed by robbers who have a great interest in staying alive after the robbery. These nutjobs are ok with suicide by cop in most cases. Lone armed guards will not deter them. If you want to go that route every school will have to be defended like a government building which expects a terrorist attack.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                You have said enough here to make me believe that monitoring and patrolling would do zilch. Schools are not built as fortresses. They are built on open plans to make moving between areas easier. Typically at least one door is kept open in the main building. Most doors are not fortified anyway.
                The limitations are legal, not practical. If we can have an airbase in Khandahar, we can fortify a school. In this case, the monitoring is not done by the school. It's done by the police at the local police station and the cameras would need to be everywhere, not just the hallways. They will need to identify the shoorter(s) location and channel students/teachers to safety either via lock down or get them out of harms' way.

                All entrances and exits are firedoors by code. They can take 5.56NATO hits. Classroom doors also meet firecode.

                All this falls down to 2 military axioms. Find the enemy. Kill the enemy. Seeing the enemy approaching from the Fence Line can at least raise the passive defences (lock down), allowing time for the RRF to respond. With cameras inside and out, the police can direct force to where it is needed and not spend time trying to locate the shooter.

                After school starts, all entrances and exits should be done via one gate. The free for all entry/exits that is currently the SOP is gone.
                Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 01 Mar 18,, 02:11.
                Chimo

                Comment


                • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                  The limitations are legal, not practical. If we can have an airbase in Khandahar, we can fortify a school. In this case, the monitoring is not done by the school. It's done by the police at the local police station and the cameras would need to be everywhere, not just the hallways. They will need to identify the shoorter(s) location and channel students/teachers to safety either via lock down or get them out of harms' way.

                  All entrances and exits are firedoors by code. They can take 5.56NATO hits.

                  All this falls down to 2 military axioms. Find the enemy. Kill the enemy. Seeing the enemy approaching from the Fence Line can at least raise the passive defences (lock down), allowing time for the RRF to respond. With cameras inside and out, the police can direct force to where it is needed and not spend time trying to locate the shooter.
                  Good lord! Sir, how many schools in Canada or the UK or Japan need to be protected like this? Shit, even growing up in poor, third world India we were never worried about crazy ex-students shooting at us. And cops giving out traffic tickets did not need to approach the driver's window with one hand on their handgun (which traffic cops don't even carry over there). And here we're talking about the richest most powerful country in the world reduced to turning their schools into Kandahar air base.

                  This is sheer insanity and the inability of a majority of Americans to call a spade a spade is baffling.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
                    Good lord! Sir, how many schools in Canada or the UK or Japan need to be protected like this?
                    We also don't have gun rights written into our Consitutions and hence, they are easier to legislate.

                    Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
                    Shit, even growing up in poor, third world India we were never worried about crazy ex-students shooting at us. And cops giving out traffic tickets did not need to approach the driver's window with one hand on their handgun (which traffic cops don't even carry over there). And here we're talking about the richest most powerful country in the world reduced to turning their schools into Kandahar air base.
                    Again, rightly or wrongly, gun rights are written into their Consitution.

                    Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
                    This is sheer insanity and the inability of a majority of Americans to call a spade a spade is baffling.
                    They rightly called it what it is, a Clash of Rights. Something got to give and rightly so, this should not be easy.
                    Chimo

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                      The comment about rights and privileges is different but this one about th death of 17 unknown people is plain weird. Do you have kids? I do. And I worry that some nutjob is ging to come in to their schools with a gun. Probabiity too low, you say? Just a few days back, after the Parkland Massacre, the police foiled a possible mass shooting by another of these kids in a school district near my home. For those of us with kids in the USA, this is a very real threat

                      Fortify the school, you say? Have you seen the schools? They are not a single building with a single point of entry. In most cases they are mix of separate building and portables with large courtyards between them. Even the main buildings have multiple points of entry and usually have at least one door or accessway open for visitors.
                      Good they got him.Way to go.

                      It sucks being a statistic,but stopping gun violence when you have hundreds of millions of them plus an open border to cartel land is not even a remote possibility.You think of your children.That is the most normal thing in the world,but for Christ's sake,think harder.Using reason,preferably.
                      The most ridiculous thing man can legislate is already happening in some left-ish states .They ''do something'' about the serious issue of gun violence.The result of their effort is this:http://www.thordsencustoms.com/blem-...stock-kit-odg/ .A perfectly functioning AR.Its ridiculous look is just the mirror reflection of the people that led to it.

                      The point is that if you want your children safe,stop supporting the imbeciles.Their only achievement is in pissing off some very heavily armed bunch of dudes.That are not getting less armed after all this crap.

                      Thing about guns is they are a perfect indicator for the level of bolshevism in a person.One that likes them is 98% of the cases also going to share other traits:patriotism,some form of religion,a desire for freedom from the state and all the ramifications derived from those.The reverse is equally true.

                      If these groups which exist normally in a society without liking each other too much cross a threshold of hate,your children's chances of catching a bullet amplify.
                      Until then,get some retired vets guard your kids school.If the other parents don't want it,consider changing places.It's not my problem ,thankfully,but you got no easy way out,buddy.
                      Those who know don't speak
                      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                        ... If we can have an airbase in Khandahar, we can fortify a school. In this case, the monitoring is not done by the school. It's done by the police at the local police station and the cameras would need to be everywhere, not just the hallways. They will need to identify the shoorter(s) location and channel students/teachers to safety either via lock down or get them out of harms' way.

                        All this falls down to 2 military axioms. Find the enemy. Kill the enemy. Seeing the enemy approaching from the Fence Line can at least raise the passive defences (lock down), allowing time for the RRF to respond. With cameras inside and out, the police can direct force to where it is needed and not spend time trying to locate the shooter.
                        That's a hell of an impost on local law enforcement (and local tax payers) your talking about there LC. Firstly even with the best tech available an average size school will require scores of cameras which, if you are really serious about real time threat detection means at least a 2 or 3 man monitoring shift and a couple of shifts of those per day. Per school. Plus having a command centre wired into the school communication system.

                        Even allowing for say just 3 local schools up to and including community colleges (and urbanized areas will have more) you are still talking about a couple of dozen extra staff per department. And that's not including the 10 or so (2 per school) static security staff you have on duty during school hours. I'm sure you know what training courses, leave and sick days etc do to a unit roster.

                        Where's you average rural PD or school board going to get the money?

                        As for Khandahar, while it arguably has one of the the tightest security regimes on the planet - for obvious reasons it is also horrendously expensive to run.
                        If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                          The limitations are legal, not practical. If we can have an airbase in Khandahar, we can fortify a school. In this case, the monitoring is not done by the school. It's done by the police at the local police station and the cameras would need to be everywhere, not just the hallways. They will need to identify the shoorter(s) location and channel students/teachers to safety either via lock down or get them out of harms' way.

                          All entrances and exits are firedoors by code. They can take 5.56NATO hits. Classroom doors also meet firecode.

                          All this falls down to 2 military axioms. Find the enemy. Kill the enemy. Seeing the enemy approaching from the Fence Line can at least raise the passive defences (lock down), allowing time for the RRF to respond. With cameras inside and out, the police can direct force to where it is needed and not spend time trying to locate the shooter.

                          After school starts, all entrances and exits should be done via one gate. The free for all entry/exits that is currently the SOP is gone.
                          Except that the Depts. of Educaton at state as well as the DHSS has nowehere near the funding of the DOD or State. So we fortify schools. Who is going to pay. The states through property taxes? who do you think is blocking state level educations depts. from access to more funds? In WA basic education funding is mandated through court order. Even then the Republicans at Olympica managed to tamp down on available funds for anything beyond the most "basic" and school districts then had to go out and ask for property tax increases within the district voters.

                          Unless the Republicans allow more funds to the schools, fortification is not happening.
                          "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                          Comment


                          • I've already said that there are no easy options. Fortification is not happening not just because of money but it crosses into issues of Constitutional Privacy and Property laws.

                            You want cheap and easy? Home school your children but then, you've already faced an attempted home invasion. How about moving to Australia? Just stay away from the gang wars and their drive by shootings.

                            You just want to deter the lone wolf who got crazy thoughts? Hire private security in full body armour with AR-15s (oopss) constantly patrolling the perimeter. Oh, btw, a hell of a lot of school shootings (and they never made national news) are drive by shootings. So, how are gang wars in your area? Let's just hope your lone wolf didn't read up on North Hollywood and stuff his jacket with steel plates.

                            Fortification is expensive as hell because we want to be ready for bear, not puppies. And there are a hell of a lot of bears around.
                            Chimo

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                              I suggest you read the decision again. The term is In Common Usage. Semi-atuos are in common usage. The law does NOT allow you to retreat from common usage.
                              Let's read it together

                              The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.
                              Let's narrow down:
                              laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.
                              Where do you see "common usage"?

                              Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                              The 2A and 44 States with the Right to Bear Arms in their own Constitution say otherwise.

                              I said A LEGAL TRADE.

                              Until they are defined illegal, they are legal and good luck banning every action that ever existed on earth. I will bet you tomorrow that someone will come up with an action that is semi-auto in nature but would fit outside the current legal defintions. The old fashion gatling crank comes to mind. The only reason why it's restricted to cannon use is because superior handheld actions of the day that deliver similar rates of fire
                              Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                              Yeah and I also know that there overseas makers of cheap parts. All you would have done is to restrict firearm ownership to the rich and I am extremely uncomfortable with that. Gunsmiths are still required to service military and police firearms and there's no law yet that they cannot service privately held firearms.
                              I understand your objection around legal and illegal trade. However, laws can be changed, if the Constitution allows it. The Heller decision says that the Consitution will allow it. The reason that that has not ben done is lack of political will. I see that changing.

                              Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                              Who says you can't? You just have to pay an exhorborant price for it. Again restricting firearms to the rich. I do not like a situation in NYC where a combat veteran with 4 tours under his belt gone through 3 months of paperwork only to be deny a sidearm for self defence purposes and Ivanka Trump got one the next day.
                              The Heller decision quite conclusively states that individuals have the right to self defence weapons. I am in no way touching that, nor is anyoneone. The Court has spoken on that and settled that matter. Any state that tries to ban individual gun ownership will lose.

                              Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                              As for political support, you want to know what the take away from the 1997 North Hollywood Shootout was? The criminals outgunned the cops (and how effective homemade armour was). It was also during this time when people paid outrageous prices for assualt type rifles.
                              Follow the money, Do you see what is happening around? Remington went into bankruptcy. The MFs and other fund managers are ditching gun stocks. Even some big box stores are not going to carry them forward. Things are changing

                              Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                              Now, let's say you get your ban. How long before you see results? We know that 10 years is too short (The 1994 AWB expired in 2004 with no evidence of AWB crime reduction), so 20 years before you see results? 20 years of reducing the People's Consitutional Rights while still subjecting the schools to the same danger. Not acceptable.
                              Good question. In the short run, we need something iike this, which has conservative support.

                              https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...consider-grvo/

                              I would support creating a gun watch list whcih encompasses things like violent behavior, presence on other watch lists. Also, WA state has passed a measure by which close relatives or friends can request taking guns away from someone with dangerous behavior. I would support that too.

                              Again, my goal is not to ban semi-autos, but to register them like we have registered autos.
                              "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                              Comment


                              • It would help greatly if you actually quote THE WHOLE THING

                                2) Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56.
                                You CANNOT pick and choose which part of the decision you want to enforce. This is a SC decision and as such, you could not deny semi-autos nor phasers when they come into common use.

                                Sorry but Hellar actually go AGAINST what you want. Heller FORBIDS you to deny RESTRICT "common use" firearms like it's done full auto.

                                And no, you are NOT allow to write new laws to overturn Heller; not without a Consitutional Amendment.
                                Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 01 Mar 18,, 19:19.
                                Chimo

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