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Las Vegas Oct 2017 mass shooting

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  • Originally posted by antimony View Post
    I would start with the following
    Too many loop holes to begin with.

    Originally posted by antimony View Post
    1. Ban all semi-auto firearms imports - AKs, FN FALs, VEPRs. I believe this can be done through executive order
    Can be built under license in the US.

    Originally posted by antimony View Post
    2. Ban all import of ammuniton. Let's see where you get your cheap TULA and WOLF. I think this can be done through Executive order too
    Executive Orders can be challenged through courts, especially trade. Note the BOEING-BOMBADIER fiasco.

    Originally posted by antimony View Post
    3. Raise taxes on all non-hunting rifle calibers. Your 5.56, .223, 7.62 all go way up. Do the same for 300 blackout
    Idiotic to the extreme and won't stand up in court. If it can drop a man, it can drop a deer/moose/bear/elk. Your 5.56/.223 are fantastic coyote rounds and the 7.62/.308 are the run-of-the-mill deer rounds.

    Originally posted by antimony View Post
    4. Raise taxes way high on all reloading equipment and supplies
    5. Raise minimum age to be able to purchase firearms to 21 - act of Congress
    6. Harsh mandatory minimum sentences for any firearms violations - act of Congress
    7. Mandatory backgrounds check and data sharing across the board - act of Congress
    8. Do not allow people on aviation, terrorist or any other watchlists to purchase firearms. They should have a right to appeal though - act of Congress
    9. Share mental health related data federally and across states, include as part of background check - act of Congress
    Act of Congress should tell you just how realistic these all are.

    Originally posted by antimony View Post
    10. Ban bump fire stocks - Act of Congress


    Originally posted by antimony View Post
    The next step is to ban all semi auto rifles (Assault weapons do not even mean anything). Do not touch pistols, shotgun variants and non semi auto rifle variants
    Check out WW1 military rifles. Banning semi auto will not solve mass murder nor even reduce mass murder problem.

    You are attacking the sympton, not the disease. Again, the only reason why these idiots turn to firearms is because of the cool factor. Eliminating the cool factor does not eliminate the murder rage. The sniper is no longer the Jihadist hero, the bombmaker is.

    Edit:
    Originally posted by antimony View Post
    The next step is to ban all semi auto rifles (Assault weapons do not even mean anything). Do not touch pistols, shotgun variants and non semi auto rifle variants
    Now that I think about this some more, this is completely unworkable. The difference between semi-auto long arms and pistols is barrel length. If you ban the action, then you have to ban both.

    And even that is unworkable. It won't be long when companies start making a revolver type action for long arms. Or are you going to ban revolver actions also?
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 17 Feb 18,, 22:24.
    Chimo

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    • usually means those freaks turn to knives rather than bombs or whatnot.

      and even then, the prospect of actually stabbing someone up close and personal is a major turnoff, which is why we don't hear about frequent mass knifings in the UK or Australia or Japan. they do happen...but nothing close to the number of mass shootings in the US.
      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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      • Have you all consider that this was an attempted suicide by cop?
        Chimo

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        • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
          Have you all consider that this was an attempted suicide by cop?
          It goes without saying, that in the overwhelming majority of active shooter cases, the gunman does not intend to live.
          "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

          Comment


          • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
            Play with the .303 LEE-ENFIELD, a bolt action designed for military use, rapid fire, fast reload, and is not a semi-auto.
            The SMLE is a special case, with its cock on closing action. Most bolt actions available in the US are Mauser or Remington, a slower cock on open action. Even SMLEs .303s are 10 rounders, which means time for mag change. Also .303 rounds are relatively hard to come by at bulk. There are some SMLEs chambered in.308, but they are relatively rare (I am in the market for one)

            Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
            I rather have him hitting walls and ceilings and wasting ammo than to acquire a 2nd target.
            Col., that's the point. A school hallway or classroom with students running around is a target rich environment and there is less chance of him missing even if he simply sprays.

            Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
            As opposed to learning how to load and reload a firearm? Molotov cocktails ain't rocket science.

            The only thing stopping more Boston Marathons is the lack of cool factor.
            I still think that it is safer (to the perp himself) to operate the gun compared to mucking around with explosives

            Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
            They should already have it. It's called the Fire Code. What's missing are procedures on how to lock doors, get out of the lanes of fire, call for help, and how to wait for help.
            Yes, my daughter's school has those doors. But better access control, along with these lockdown procedures is definitely required.
            "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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            • Then Thank God that suicide vests don't have a cool factor. At least, not yet.
              Chimo

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              • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                The SMLE is a special case, with its cock on closing action. Most bolt actions available in the US are Mauser or Remington, a slower cock on open action. Even SMLEs .303s are 10 rounders, which means time for mag change. Also .303 rounds are relatively hard to come by at bulk. There are some SMLEs chambered in.308, but they are relatively rare (I am in the market for one)
                You're missing the point. The point is that the action is available and can be put into new designs. Rapid fire, fast load bolt action technology exists.

                Originally posted by antimony View Post
                Col., that's the point. A school hallway or classroom with students running around is a target rich environment and there is less chance of him missing even if he simply sprays.
                Spray makes the barrel climb and hit high, over the heads of his intended target but I ask you, what if he brought a pump action 12 guage shotgun with 00 buckshot?

                Originally posted by antimony View Post
                I still think that it is safer (to the perp himself) to operate the gun compared to mucking around with explosives
                It was an attempted suicide by cop. Thank God, he didn't think about a suicide vest.
                Chimo

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                • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                  Know whats crazy?
                  We won't allow a 19yr old to buy a beer. Because he/she isn't mature enough to be a responsible drinker.

                  But, we have no problem with them buying guns. Even those like this shooter that checked hisself out of a mental health clinic not to long ago.
                  I made that point earlier but nobody answered. Since you bring it up i'd like to know why teens are allowed to handle guns.

                  It seems the closest correlation i can find as to why this goes on

                  As to why he did it, maybe he's been on anti-depressants too long. It's ironic that anti-depressants can sometimes lead to suicide
                  Last edited by Double Edge; 17 Feb 18,, 23:04.

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                  • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                    Too many loop holes to begin with.
                    Can be built under license in the US.
                    Yes, I know. I have one from Century Arms. Meanwhile prices will go up. Manufacturers will have to invest in tools and dies, which can be targeted separately.

                    Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                    Executive Orders can be challenged through courts, especially trade. Note the BOEING-BOMBADIER fiasco.
                    Sure, go ahead. Not every Executive Order needs to be crafted by boneheads. Competently crafted Executive Orders will not fall apart.

                    Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                    Idiotic to the extreme and won't stand up in court. If it can drop a man, it can drop a deer/moose/bear/elk. Your 5.56/.223 are fantastic coyote rounds and the 7.62/.308 are the run-of-the-mill deer rounds.
                    Yes, great. The better question is, how will you stop it if an activist President who does this by Executive Action?

                    Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                    Act of Congress should tell you just how realistic these all are.
                    I was wrong about the sharing mental data part. Obama already did that (and Trump removed it). Raising taxes can be done by EA. Regarding the rest, which ones do you think will face political opposition? Raising min age? Mandatory sentencing? The watchlist thing?

                    Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                    Check out WW1 military rifles. Banning semi auto will not solve mass murder nor even reduce mass murder problem.
                    I have them. I also have semi-autos like ARs and AKs. If you are telling me that bolt actions have the same fire rate and firepower as semi-autos then you are full of it

                    Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                    You are attacking the sympton, not the disease. Again, the only reason why these idiots turn to firearms is because of the cool factor. Eliminating the cool factor does not eliminate the murder rage. The sniper is no longer the Jihadist hero, the bombmaker is.
                    The disease is that we have these weapons widely available. It is time to treat that.

                    Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                    Edit:Now that I think about this some more, this is completely unworkable. The difference between semi-auto long arms and pistols is barrel length. If you ban the action, then you have to ban both.

                    And even that is unworkable. It won't be long when companies start making a revolver type action for long arms. Or are you going to ban revolver actions also?
                    Long guns (independent of action) and pistols are already treated differently by law during background checks. Long guns (if there is political acceptance) can be further be broadly divided into semi auto actions and others.

                    Saying that semi auto actions are the same as pistols with longer barrels is completely disingenuous. How exactly will a short action like that handle intermediate and longer rounds? Come to think of it, I would like to see them attempt it. I do not see thm as being reliable solutions.

                    Revolver type action for long arms? So now I have reduced something with a light SA trigger and possibly hundreds of rounds (drum mags) in firepower to something completely different with a max of 7-8 rounds, a long, heavy DA trigger pull and possible timing issues?

                    Good job, me.
                    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                      You're missing the point. The point is that the action is available and can be put into new designs. Rapid fire, fast load bolt action technology exists.
                      I am really not. I understand that point. My point is that this is readily available right now. Someone will have to build it, which can be targetted through speciific taxes on tooling.

                      BTW, can you help me understand why that design is not already implemented on currently available long guns? Why do we see so many Mauser and Remington actions but very few Lee Enfield actios or variants? This is something that genuinely puzzles me.

                      Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                      Spray makes the barrel climb and hit high, over the heads of his intended target but I ask you, what if he brought a pump action 12 guage shotgun with 00 buckshot?
                      Greater damage, but probably fewer casualties. I would submit that a few buckshots do less internal damage than tumbling 223/556 rounds. A few more things, A 12 Gauge pump action can be fast, but needs practice to operate smoothly. There is a lag in the pumpimg action.

                      I will concede that pump actions in the hands of skilled shooters are essentially limitless in ammo. However, it is not easy firing on a 12 ga with 00 for an extended time, while dealing with the heavy recoil and the pumping action.
                      "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by jjk308 View Post
                        Sorry. I can understand how upset you are but you are wrong. Tighter regulations have proven useless - according to my own and other studies both in the USA and abroad, such as the failure of the Australian auto-loader buy back to have any effect on the violent crime rate curve. And you misread the NRA influence and the reasons for gun control legislative failure.
                        jjk - With respect the above comment is a basic misinterpretation the Australian data and the same problem tends to arise whenever American pro gun advocates comment on the Australian auto-loader ban.

                        You are correct when you note that the gun buyback had little to no effect on the level of violent crime in Australia. But that is not the issue. The auto-loader ban was focused on preventing one specific sub-set of violent crime i.e. mass shootings not all violent crime and in that context it has been a spectacular success.

                        The same issue arises with other crime types say theft. As a crime type there are multiple subcategories, i.e burglary, auto theft, shop lifting, muggings etc (and of course sub-sets within those sub-sets). It follows that techniques designed to defeat or reduce one sub-set of crime will have little or no effect on another. Mandating the use of engine immobilizers and similar technologies in all new cars is an effective way reducing car theft but it will have zero impact on overall burglary rates.

                        The fact is that in most of the Western World violent crime rates have been and are continuing to decrease since the late seventies/early eighties. There are actually more firearms in Australia now than there were before the buy-back but the downward trend in murder rates has continued regardless indicating no strong nexus between overall gun ownership rates here (and most other Western counties) and violent crime. This is because gun ownership is confined largely to a relatively small percentage of the population who are all law abiding (licensed, back ground checked and trained). There is however a very strong nexus between mass shootings and auto-loaders as demonstrated by the fact that we have had zero mass shootings since the ban.

                        So if the US decides to ban auto-loaders the impact on overall gun crime rates will be minimal but the impact on mass shootings would or should be significant... but .. and here is the sting in the tail while I don't have the exact figures to hand mass shootings in the US represent less than 1 percent of the total gun deaths excluding suicides every year. So are Americans prepared to pay the price?

                        One last thing - any auto loader ban would have also include a significant tightening of handgun (pistol not revolver) ownership as is the case here. This is simply because of the high rates of fire these weapons can obtain, otherwise any ban on long arms will be much less effective than ours was. I believe you'd still put an end to double figure mass shooting casualty rates - with rare exceptions but the singe figure incidents (e.g. 3-6) would continue on their depressing way unless pistol restrictions were included along the lines that Australia Canada and other Western jurisdictions impose.

                        To change things will require determination and political courage, IMO two commodities sadly lacking in Washington at the moment. So one way or another the US has managed to create tragic problem for itself. And this time it's not the Chinese fault.
                        Last edited by Monash; 18 Feb 18,, 02:47.
                        If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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                        • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                          Unless that teacher was a former combat veteran with 10 years experience, then you are asking for a shootout in a crowded school.
                          My point is a shootout kills less people than a massacre. I agree with you about the lack of combat abilities. However, the same applies to every one involved until SWAT arrives, including the shooter himself. He's prepared for a massacre but not a fight.

                          I don't see any room-to-room combat training.

                          The situation is urban combat. The answer is get the hell out of the way so the doorkickers can do their jobs.
                          I agree with you, but what do you do in the interim between the start of the shooting and when swat arrives? Thats when all the casualties happen.

                          They're building codes, ie firedoors to prevent the spreading of fire. But you also have to include drills into the equation. The teachers have to know when and how to lock the doors and get the students away from the fields of fire.

                          I have a nightmare scenario though. The gunman walks in during class change. I don't know the answer to that one.
                          It turns out your nightmare scenario actually happened this time. The building was secure, but this kid was smart and planned it out.

                          First, he chose his attack at school closing tine when the doors to the scbook are opened for students and staff to leave.

                          Second, he pulled the fire alarm knowing that would deactivate locks on the doors to let people out. This made it hard for teachers to keep students secured in the room.

                          This guy knew his school intimately and planned his attack to circumvent the otherwise effective physical security.

                          He also got lucky because the one SRO at the school was not near the scene of the shooting at the time. He might have even been off campus.

                          Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                          And of course the State of Florida has been constantly cutting that budget since 2007.

                          https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ney/339934002/

                          Districts 10 years ago divvied up a Safe Schools pot of about $75.6 million, a plateau that hasn't been seen, or even approached, since.

                          Since 2007, Safe Schools has been cut by 15% — little by little until it hit $64.4 million in 2011, according to the Department of Education.
                          As I wrote above this school had decent physical security. The one vulnerability was the fire alarm system exploited in the attack. The school had wanted to upgrade but did not find the budget.


                          I think beyond arming the teachers, which I agree is problematic but I think needs further study, the most immediate steps that will instantly mitigate risks of these attacks are following:

                          1. Actually follow up on credible tips. This is incredibly important. In this case the FBI received a credible and specific tip from someone close to the shooter. If these aren't followed up we have no prayer of stopping these things.

                          2. There needs to be a systematic national framework guidance for when and how school officials should work with local state and federal LE to report, respond and vet threats. No school should ever expell a student for threat of violence without warning law enforcement.

                          3. Systematic procedures should be developed for law enforcement and mental health professionals to vet and monitor individuals that pose a credible threat. These procedures should be aimed at prevention and deescalation. They should not be so draconian that community members are discouraged from reporting, but they need to be effective.

                          4. The communities need detailed and specific education on when to report and what to report. They also need to know what will happen to their loved ones friends or students if they report them, how their own identities will be protected, and the dire consequences of not reporting, and the consequences for hoax reporting. This is so members of the community can have the know how to do the right thing.


                          Lastly, as a tactical matter, multiple police officers need to be deployed on or very close to school campuses at school start and days end.
                          Last edited by citanon; 18 Feb 18,, 00:31.

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                          • Originally posted by jjk308 View Post
                            Sorry. I can understand how upset you are but you are wrong. Tighter regulations have proven useless - according to my own and other studies both in the USA and abroad, such as the failure of the Australian autoloader buy back to have any effect on the violent crime rate curve. And you misread the NRA influence and the reasons for gun control legislative failure.

                            It's obvious that more armed protection for schools and a competent and pro-active FBI and local law enforcement could have, and should have, prevented this shooting. But the media firestorm surpasses anything I've seen in sheer emotionalism and ignorance.

                            None of them seem to know anything about the subject beyond parroting what they've seen in like minded media articles and news reports.
                            You have to love someone who accuses others of 'emotionalism and ignorance' and 'parroting likeminded media' immediately after making a claim about the 'failure' of an Australian policy that can only have its origins in emotionalism, ignorance and likeminded media.

                            The laws passed in Australia in 1996 & subsequent laws - which constitute considerably more than buying back semi-automatics - were not aimed at the 'violent crime curve' (talk about constructing a definition designed to get a particular answer). They were aimed at decreasing the number of deaths caused by firearms, in particular the number of murders. They were very specifically aimed at preventing the sort of crime that is the subject of this thread.

                            So, when a mentally ill young man committed yet another mass shooting - the latest in a string of such crimes over the preceding decades - we didn't waste our time in the sort of organized mass diversions that are now the standard response to these things in the US. We didn't advocate locking up innocent mentally ill people in order to protect gun owners from the horror of owning less guns. We didn't spend endless hours debating what is & isn't an 'assault weapon'. We didn't waste time debating arming teachers. We didn't blame ethnic minorities, blather on about 'people kill people...' or sink into the rote learned emotional responses of gun owners masquerading as a 'rational response'.

                            We enacted a series laws that have seen a dramatic drop in firearms murders, as was intended. In the 20+ years since those laws there hasn't been a mass shooting incident (5 or more victims), as intended. The rate of firearms deaths overall has decreased by 66%, as was intended. The murder rate has also halved, as was intended. I am not advocating that America can or should replicate these laws, but they have worked.

                            Because they have worked the Firearms lobby in the US has spent decades pushing misleading propaganda about those laws. Nothing scarier than the success of laws you are opposed to. Whoever is telling you that the 'violent crime curve' is relevant here is pushing an agenda. By all means misrepresent your own nation, but don't lie about mine. We have civilized & successful gun laws, you have one of the most spectacular and costly policy failures in the democratic world. Someone hoping to do something about that policy failure might try to learn from successful attempts elsewhere rather than creating ways to dismiss them.
                            sigpic

                            Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                            • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                              Yes, I know. I have one from Century Arms. Meanwhile prices will go up. Manufacturers will have to invest in tools and dies, which can be targeted separately.
                              It's been done before and it has NOT stopped the spread of military style firearms. If there are people willing to pay for it, there will be sales. Also, there's nothing special about the AK action.

                              Originally posted by antimony View Post
                              Sure, go ahead. Not every Executive Order needs to be crafted by boneheads. Competently crafted Executive Orders will not fall apart.
                              EOs cannot violate the law and that includes the various trade treaties Ratified by the Senate. The President is not above the law.

                              Originally posted by antimony View Post
                              Yes, great. The better question is, how will you stop it if an activist President who does this by Executive Action?
                              It is not illegal to disobey an illegal EO. Such an order would violate the 2A. You ban these ammo, then you effectively ban the 5.56/.223, 7.62/.308 firearms, perfectly legal calibres.

                              Originally posted by antimony View Post
                              I was wrong about the sharing mental data part. Obama already did that (and Trump removed it). Raising taxes can be done by EA. Regarding the rest, which ones do you think will face political opposition? Raising min age? Mandatory sentencing? The watchlist thing?
                              That is incorrect. Obama shared mental health records of convicted criminals, he is not allowed to share health records of those who broke no laws.

                              All budgets are done by the Houses. That is one of the Checks and Balances of British inherited systems. The Executive/King does not control the purse, Parliament/Congree/Senate does.

                              The rest violates an individual's right to privacy. Just because you're on a watchlist does not mean you broken a law. You're not denied rights as defined by the US Constitution just because you are suspected of something. The state has the legal obligation to prove that you should be denied those rights. Until then, Innocent Until Proven Guilty. Until Proven Guilty, you have all your rights. Otherwise, American citizens should be arming themselves real fast and I mean tanks and artillery.

                              Originally posted by antimony View Post
                              I have them. I also have semi-autos like ARs and AKs. If you are telling me that bolt actions have the same fire rate and firepower as semi-autos then you are full of it
                              Same rate of fire? No. Same firepower? Tell me an AK or an AR chamberred for a .50BMG. However, I'm speaking of lethality and if someone would mordernize the SMLE action, then yes, I would pit it against an AK or an AR, especially chambered for a .30-06

                              Originally posted by antimony View Post
                              The disease is that we have these weapons widely available. It is time to treat that.
                              The disease is the cry for help and no one listened. As I said, the AR was the cool factor. The kid could have done a lot more damage with a 12 guage pump with 00 buck. Again, Thank God, he didn't think of a suicide vest.

                              Originally posted by antimony View Post
                              Long guns (independent of action) and pistols are already treated differently by law during background checks. Long guns (if there is political acceptance) can be further be broadly divided into semi auto actions and others
                              Again, you have to fit it within existing legislation. After market barrels do exist for pistols.

                              Originally posted by antimony View Post
                              Saying that semi auto actions are the same as pistols with longer barrels is completely disingenuous. How exactly will a short action like that handle intermediate and longer rounds? Come to think of it, I would like to see them attempt it. I do not see thm as being reliable solutions.
                              You're joking. Thompsons. MP5, Uzi

                              Originally posted by antimony View Post
                              Revolver type action for long arms? So now I have reduced something with a light SA trigger and possibly hundreds of rounds (drum mags) in firepower to something completely different with a max of 7-8 rounds, a long, heavy DA trigger pull and possible timing issues?

                              Good job, me.
                              Gatling.
                              Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 18 Feb 18,, 02:02.
                              Chimo

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                                I am really not. I understand that point. My point is that this is readily available right now. Someone will have to build it, which can be targetted through speciific taxes on tooling.
                                Machine lathes and stamps?

                                Originally posted by antimony View Post
                                BTW, can you help me understand why that design is not already implemented on currently available long guns? Why do we see so many Mauser and Remington actions but very few Lee Enfield actios or variants? This is something that genuinely puzzles me.
                                Rear locking action. It weakens accuracy over time as compared to front locking actions.

                                Originally posted by antimony View Post
                                Greater damage, but probably fewer casualties. I would submit that a few buckshots do less internal damage than tumbling 223/556 rounds.
                                9 pellets have a better chance of hitting your target than a single round and the pump allows you to reacquire your target selection.

                                Originally posted by antimony View Post
                                A few more things, A 12 Gauge pump action can be fast, but needs practice to operate smoothly. There is a lag in the pumpimg action.
                                We're talking about a kid on adrendelin in close quarters. He was missing more than he hit with the AR. That would not be the same with the 12 gauge.

                                Originally posted by antimony View Post
                                I will concede that pump actions in the hands of skilled shooters are essentially limitless in ammo. However, it is not easy firing on a 12 ga with 00 for an extended time, while dealing with the heavy recoil and the pumping action.
                                We can say anything about a skilled shooter. Hell, if it was any military member here, the thinking would be grenades. However, the point remains that he could have done a hell of a lot more damage with other tools. The very fact that everyone is focusing on the ARs is missing the picture.

                                He was intent on suicide by cop. He just chose an AR instead of a bomb vest and only because bomb vests ain't glorified - yet. It's the suicide by cop you should be focusing on.
                                Chimo

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