Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Terror of Fake News

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Yes yes I've read Bannons claims before. Just because a political hack who constantly criticised Trump prior to the election despite his position puts his thoughts on paper with a letterhead doesn't make it true.
    you do realize that Brennan isn't the sole author of the report?

    and that if a political appointee took it upon himself to make up a whole-of-IC conclusion to make his political boss look good, there would be mass protests and resignations?

    this is the entire point of my discussion with YF. either you believe the American intelligence community to be political hacks or you believe them to be professionals. there's no middle-ground here.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

    Comment


    • Originally posted by astralis View Post
      you do realize that Brennan isn't the sole author of the report?

      and that if a political appointee took it upon himself to make up a whole-of-IC conclusion to make his political boss look good, there would be mass protests and resignations?

      this is the entire point of my discussion with YF. either you believe the American intelligence community to be political hacks or you believe them to be professionals. there's no middle-ground here.
      Brennan is a base political hack appointed far above his abilities. Anything he touched is toxic by definition. I know you're onboard with politically perverted intelligence agencies, but the rest of the anglosphere is not, hence my claims the US has, at least for the time being, entered a banana republic phase, an outcome of the previous administration. Rice's spreadsheets are just another example.

      As for your claims of there's smoke therefore fire or 'the investigation is proof of guilt', it is the FBI that is investigating and they have proffered no outcome. Perhaps you have a direct line into the current status of their inquiry? Otherwise, your just generating 'speculation' and claiming it as proof.
      In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

      Leibniz

      Comment


      • yes, good to know where you stand.

        based on this statement of yours, there's really not much point in me using actual IC documents to make my case, because it's all political hackjobbery.

        and using NYT/Washington Post/CNN etc is also right out because they're all Fake News.

        so if the only basis for truth that you can accept as "proof" is from the Daily Caller or Breitbart, I profess that I'm rather at a disadvantage in debating things with you.
        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

        Comment


        • Originally posted by astralis View Post
          https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf

          Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections
          Something seems to be missing from this post. Where exactly does it say anything about Trump colluding with the Russians? I can't find it.

          To Pari's point that "The connection to Trump is pure political spin on your part" you responded with an excerpt that in fact makes no mention of any collusion or ties to his administration.

          What were you trying to prove? That he was right?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by astralis View Post
            yes, good to know where you stand.
            Transparent democracy. Personally I prefer a constitutional Monarchy with limited govt. defined by a constitution much like the American one was.

            Originally posted by astralis View Post
            based on this statement of yours, there's really not much point in me using actual IC documents to make my case, because it's all political hackjobbery.
            It was a political statement before the outcome of any actual inquiry. How else should it be viewed?

            Originally posted by astralis View Post
            and using NYT/Washington Post/CNN etc is also right out because they're all Fake News.
            Yes they are. Is the Brennan quotation false?

            Originally posted by astralis View Post
            so if the only basis for truth that you can accept as "proof" is from the Daily Caller or Breitbart, I profess that I'm rather at a disadvantage in debating things with you.
            Unlike you, I read multiple news outlets from multiple political vantage points, hence my linking to NYT, CNN, Breitbart, National Review, Vox, Daily Beast, Rolling Stone, American Conservative et cetera et cetera et cetera. Hence I ask again, is the Brennan quotation false?
            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

            Leibniz

            Comment


            • wooglin,

              Something seems to be missing from this post. Where exactly does it say anything about Trump colluding with the Russians? I can't find it.

              To Pari's point that "The connection to Trump is pure political spin on your part" you responded with an excerpt that in fact makes no mention of any collusion or ties to his administration.

              What were you trying to prove? That he was right?
              if you're going to interrupt a conversation, at least have the basic courtesy to review it before you interject.

              my earlier statement to YF stated that there was one completed investigation into Putin's interference into the US election and one ongoing investigation into the Trump candidacy/administration's ties with Russia. i clearly delineated the two.

              in fact, i even went out of my way to state that thus far the Administration hasn't been found guilty of collusion, and previously even expressed my own personal doubts that Trump was actively colluding with the Russians.

              thus, my response to Pari's post was to point out that there was an earlier investigation that found Putin to have intervened to help Trump.
              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

              Comment


              • pari,

                It was a political statement before the outcome of any actual inquiry. How else should it be viewed?
                it should be viewed as the findings of a professional investigation.

                viewing it as anything else just means you believe Obama set up a puppet intelligence community/FBI, which is Alex Jones conspiracy territory.
                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                Comment


                • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  pari,



                  it should be viewed as the findings of a professional investigation.
                  Really? Then there's no need for the FBI investigation, the congressional inquiries and both Clapper and Morell Disagree with you.

                  "On the question of the Trump campaign conspiring with the Russians here, there is smoke, but there is no fire, at all," Morell said at an event sponsored by the Cipher Brief, an intelligence web site.

                  "There's no little campfire, there's no little candle, there's no spark. And there's a lot of people looking for it."
                  "Morell pointed out that former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper said on Meet the Press on March 5 that he had seen no evidence of a conspiracy when he left office January 20.

                  "That's a pretty strong statement by General Clapper," Morell said.
                  Clapper's interview is fascinating in its entirety by the way, you might want to listen to the whole thing given it disagrees with everything you've said.


                  The ODNI also disagree with you
                  The overseers of the U.S. intelligence community have not embraced a CIA assessment that Russian cyber attacks were aimed at helping Republican President-elect Donald Trump win the 2016 election, three American officials said on Monday.

                  While the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI) does not dispute the CIA's analysis of Russian hacking operations, it has not endorsed their assessment because of a lack of conclusive evidence that Moscow intended to boost Trump over Democratic opponent Hillary Clinton, said the officials, who declined to be named.
                  And of course Schiff disagrees with you
                  "We haven't obtained any of the evidence yet. So it's premature for us to be saying that we have reached any conclusion about the issue of collusion," he said. "You don't begin by stating what you believe to be the conclusion."
                  Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  viewing it as anything else just means you believe Obama set up a puppet intelligence community/FBI, which is Alex Jones conspiracy territory.
                  Well no. Given the sources I've read and yet again relinked, the only one channeling Jones is you.
                  In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                  Leibniz

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by YellowFever View Post
                    Shit, I just realized this is a non ending debate...lol.

                    I tip over my king, sir.
                    (Until I come back in two weeks....lol)
                    lol...agree. Both sides are shooting down each other's contentions using media reports and logic. But as far as the truth of the matter is concerned, no one knows, though I'll venture to guess that Trump did not collude with the Russians to hack the DNC and Podesta emails. As for lower level conniving on other stuff, we'll have to wait and see what the FBI and Congressional committees come up with. Notably, there have been no arrests to date, so it seems they have nothing yet.

                    This is going to be enshrined in the conspiracy hall of fame no matter what officialdom does to clear it up, just like the Kennedy assassination wasn't put to rest by the Warren Commission.
                    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                    Comment


                    • pari,

                      Really? Then there's no need for the FBI investigation, the congressional inquiries and both Clapper and Morell Disagree with you.
                      you continue to conflate the two separate investigations. the first investigation found that the Russians were trying to influence the election to support Trump.

                      the second currently on-going one is investigating the other way around, looking at what ties Trump Administration members might have had with the Russians, to include collusion. of course there's no evidence that has been presented yet, the investigation is still ongoing.

                      re: your Reuters article on ODNI. note that was Dec 2016 and quoted 3 officials. the ODNI report that I linked to was published 6 Jan 17.
                      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                        wooglin,



                        if you're going to interrupt a conversation, at least have the basic courtesy to review it before you interject.

                        my earlier statement to YF stated that there was one completed investigation into Putin's interference into the US election and one ongoing investigation into the Trump candidacy/administration's ties with Russia. i clearly delineated the two.

                        in fact, i even went out of my way to state that thus far the Administration hasn't been found guilty of collusion, and previously even expressed my own personal doubts that Trump was actively colluding with the Russians.

                        thus, my response to Pari's post was to point out that there was an earlier investigation that found Putin to have intervened to help Trump.
                        Yeah I read what he was responding to. Did you forget you're own post? So the shorter, more honest answer is, yes he was right.

                        Comment


                        • i was addressing pari's post here:

                          Pure fake news, The claims that the agencies believed there was hacking (of the election, not collusion between Trump and and Russia) was made by Brennan, a democrat apointment, and instigated by Obama.
                          and my response was an ODNI report that all the major US intel agencies-- not just "Brennan, a democratic appointment"-- said there was "hacking of the election", defined as Putin interfering for Trump. i did not address collusion because that's not what Pari was discussing.

                          so again, i repeat: if you're going to rudely interrupt a conversation, at least know what you're talking about.
                          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                            pari,



                            you continue to conflate the two separate investigations. the first investigation found that the Russians were trying to influence the election to support Trump.

                            the second currently on-going one is investigating the other way around, looking at what ties Trump Administration members might have had with the Russians, to include collusion. of course there's no evidence that has been presented yet, the investigation is still ongoing.

                            re: your Reuters article on ODNI. note that was Dec 2016 and quoted 3 officials. the ODNI report that I linked to was published 6 Jan 17.
                            That 'investigation' found nothing of the sort as there was no investigation. It was an analysis, presented publicly for political effect. Tell me about Saddam and WMD.
                            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                            Leibniz

                            Comment


                            • How the Clintons Sold Out U.S. National Interests to the Putin Regime
                              http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...s-putin-regime

                              Highlights—


                              The “reset button” didn’t say “reset,” in Russian, it said “overload.” Better relations ensued, therefore it was a sell-out.

                              When Secretary Clinton visited Moscow in early 2010, she didn’t say the US’ objective was to isolate, weaken or bring down Russia. She said it was to strengthen Russia. Therefore, sell-out.

                              Since the US was no longer treating Russia and Public Enemy No. 1, Boeing scored some heavy aircraft order. Obviously, a sell-out.

                              Because there has never been any difference whatsoever between the Clinton Global Initiative, the Clinton Foundation and the US Department of State, sell-out.

                              Oh, and that Canadian uranium thing. Sell-out.

                              That is all.
                              Trust me?
                              I'm an economist!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                                wooglin,



                                if you're going to interrupt a conversation, at least have the basic courtesy to review it before you interject.

                                my earlier statement to YF stated that there was one completed investigation into Putin's interference into the US election and one ongoing investigation into the Trump candidacy/administration's ties with Russia. i clearly delineated the two.

                                in fact, i even went out of my way to state that thus far the Administration hasn't been found guilty of collusion, and previously even expressed my own personal doubts that Trump was actively colluding with the Russians.

                                thus, my response to Pari's post was to point out that there was an earlier investigation that found Putin to have intervened to help Trump.
                                How the former two get in line with the third and is a bad thing for Trump Team is beyond me.
                                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X