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  • #31
    Originally posted by Triple C View Post
    I still recall the GOP electorate freaked out with HRC's "basket of deplorables" comment aimed at a X% of Trump voters.
    Half. Not x%, half.

    Half of all Asians are bad people. Half of all Muslims are Bad people, 51% of whites have bad attitudes to black people.

    pot, meet kettle.

    Plenty of videos of Trump supporters being beat up - or did you miss that, or does that just matter less, because they are Trump supporters?

    People vote the way they vote, because, for instance a mother has to weigh up what really matters - "Grab her by the pussy" or insuring her child, and does her op matter less because she's white and a trump supporter? Intersectional feminism declares yes. There isn't any racial identity in being unemployed. As is always - it's moderates in the middle that repudiate policies - the swing voter. Trust me, radicals both existent on the left and right are equally obnoxious. Plenty of College sanctioned media airtime for rants About CIS gendered straight White males needing to be exterminated out there.
    Last edited by Chunder; 19 Nov 16,, 13:42.
    Ego Numquam

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    • #32
      Triple C even so,is a legit cause.Whites voting as a bloc is not wrong.
      Those who know don't speak
      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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      • #33
        Identity politics is poisonous whether its done by the left or the right. The democrats didn't run on an anti-white platform, but I am sure many whites who don't have a racist bone in their body felt uncomfortable with a party that coddled extremism in groups like BLM.

        The democrats need to go back to the party that stands up for middle class and working class interests regardless of race, caste or skin color. When Trumpism crashes and burns as it most likely will, a moderate , center left party will the one that will be best placed to take its place.

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        • #34
          Good luck trying moderation in the age of growing extremism.This has to run its natural course.

          What you propose is in effect a complete reversal of 50 years of leftist politics and policies.Eventually it will be gone,since it is a suicidal phenomenon,but is far from that,yet.Only then there will be no reason for counter-reaction.

          I still wonder at the magnitude of vitriol directed at Trumpism.Theatrics aside,it is mostly common sense.Even the most hardcore rednecks from West Virginia understand that when standing for election is a time of boisterous claims.
          I won't bet the farm on crashing and burning.I also cannot say it will be a resounding success.But I'd say is more likely to be a successfull presidency than a failed one.
          Those who know don't speak
          He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Triple C View Post
            That's an attack on business interests. Bannon's comments is an attack on Asian Americans as a class.

            One expect barbs at one's political opponent, low blows including. Trump and his supporters' well-documented verbal and physical assaults on racial minorities as a class is of an entirely different tenor; I still recall the GOP electorate freaked out with HRC's "basket of deplorables" comment aimed at a X% of Trump voters.

            Compare what you "buy" and do not buy as a voter, with what my legal immigrant friends believe are the important issues of this election, is a pretty good illustration of my previous post. The backlash, euphemized as hostility against "identity politics" from the left, is an re-assertion of white identity politics under demographical stress.
            Democrats are explicitly attacking white men because whites are racist and not letting minorities into their Silicon Valley clubs. That's the message. That's the EXPLICIT message.
            It doesn't even make sense, because the white proportion in these firms more or less mirrors the overall population. The over-represented group is Asians. That's the IMPLICIT message. The IMPLICIT message is that a huge chunk of Democrats are totally willing to sell Asians down the river to win more votes among Hispanics or blacks. Who do you think Affirmative Action hurts the most?
            I don't know how you can categorize this as an attack on "business." It's an attack on individual people who are assumed automatically to be horrible racists. And guess what? Asians are right there with whites in these firms. Buckle up, this is only going to get worse.

            Bannon's comment has NOTHING to do with demeaning Asians or attacking Asians as a class. It has to do with acknowledging that importing people from a different culture that's not American and not Western is going to fundamentally change the way America operates. A lot of people think if immigrants are "high-skilled" that we should let everyone in: this is incredibly na´ve. Not wanting to let in 1 billion people from China, Korea, Japan, Vietnam, India, and Pakistan does NOT mean Bannon hates any of those groups or thinks they are an inferior class of people. It's saying that America would cease to be America if you just let in a billion people, and that would happen REGARDLESS of whether they are illiterate peasant farmers or all Elon Musk.

            Bannon has elements of the alt-right, but I am quite confident the media doesn't understand alt-right, because the media's shitty liberal arts education has history that starts with the 1960s. A large fraction of the pitiful numbers of the alt-right did not vote at all, because King Charles II was not on the ballot.

            Since we talk about 19th Century immigration so much, America's immigration in the 19th century DID fundamentally transform the country, and the full effects weren't felt for decades afterwards. The impact of current immigrants, already felt somewhat, will not be fully felt for another 30, 40, 50 years.
            Last edited by GVChamp; 19 Nov 16,, 21:13.
            "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Chunder View Post
              Half. Not x%, half.

              Half of all Asians are bad people. Half of all Muslims are Bad people, 51% of whites have bad attitudes to black people.

              pot, meet kettle.

              Plenty of videos of Trump supporters being beat up - or did you miss that, or does that just matter less, because they are Trump supporters?
              We're through the math of the deplorables. Half of trump supporters ain't half of white population. But go ask General Flynn being tapped for national security. He thinks you're at war with Islam to the hilt. Registry of Muslims pushed by Trump surrogates because the precedent of Japanese internment. That's not 25 percent, not 50 percent--of Japanese Americans--that's 100 percent. That registry is going to 100 percent of Muslims, supported by voters who think registering their guns is the prelude to confiscating them.

              Sure, I seen Trump supporter being assaulted. I don't condone it. But I am not surprised. Ethnic minorities haven't been beaten at the rallies of white candidates for decades. That's how you lit the fuze for late-Weimar style violence.
              Last edited by Triple C; 20 Nov 16,, 05:02.
              All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
              -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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              • #37
                I don't think there is an agreed upon definition on what the alt right is. Some consider it synonymous with the White Nationalist movement of the David Duke variety which certainly is on the fringe and most likely less than 5% of GOP voters.

                On the other hand, if one considers the alt-right to be those who identify with America as a predominantly white Christian nation of mainly European descent and would like it to remain so as long as possible, the numbers would be much larger. By this definition people like Bannon and his followers on breitbart might be considered Alt right. This is not a racist movement generally speaking (even if it is a form of identity politics), as it recognizes the presence of minorities in America and their rights as citizens and even allows for a certain level of immigration.

                The talk of letting in 1 billion people into the US is a strawman as non one is proposing that. The disagreement is over the current level of immigration, the status of illegals and pace of demographic change.
                Last edited by InExile; 19 Nov 16,, 21:42.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                  Bannon's comment has NOTHING to do with demeaning Asians or attacking Asians as a class. It has to do with acknowledging that importing people from a different culture that's not American and not Western is going to fundamentally change the way America operates. ... It's saying that America would cease to be America if you just let in a billion people [!].
                  I see, and of course you believe that fundamental change by immigrants is necessarily for the worse. God forbid, you can't have those foreigners corrupting American cookery.

                  Damn near every highly-skilled STEM-educated immigrant from my country to yours who naturalized embraced American values and preached it when they travelled the their place of birth. About half of the first gen vote republican. Bannon's comment is an insult and a betrayal of trust.

                  See, when you start coming out to say cultural change introduced by minorities are bad, you are making the argument that all of the values they have, all of the culture they inherited--their identities--are a foreign, corrupting influence to some pristine, unchanging Americana that never was. Yet, you think the Left is responsible for identity politics. You wonder why the minorities are getting restless.

                  Speaking of that essential America. Does that include Irish immigrants? Germans? Italians? All of them came in immigration waves that incited the same of backlash. You saying America is going to be made better with less of them?

                  Btw, allegation of discriminatory practice is not an attack on all white men. It's a critique on white men doing the hiring. Your defense of Trump, Sessions, Bannon and Flynn as cultural vengeance for minority activism is the kind of behavior that the BLM should cut checks for.
                  Last edited by Triple C; 19 Nov 16,, 22:30.
                  All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                  -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Mihais View Post

                    I still wonder at the magnitude of vitriol directed at Trumpism.Theatrics aside,it is mostly common sense.Even the most hardcore rednecks from West Virginia understand that when standing for election is a time of boisterous claims.
                    I won't bet the farm on crashing and burning.I also cannot say it will be a resounding success.But I'd say is more likely to be a successfull presidency than a failed one.
                    There is a way to propose the common sense measures you talk of without coming off as offensive or bigoted

                    The vitriol directed at Trump is mainly because he is a jerk and offends basic standards of decency

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by InExile View Post
                      The vitriol directed at Trump is mainly because he is a jerk and offends basic standards of decency

                      Yep. Meanwhile...

                      Click image for larger version

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                      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                        I see, and of course you believe that fundamental change by immigrants is necessarily for the worse. God forbid, you can't have those foreigners corrupting American cookery.

                        Damn near every highly-skilled STEM-educated immigrant from my country to yours who naturalized embraced American values and preached it when they travelled the their place of birth. About half of the first gen vote republican. Bannon's comment is an insult and a betrayal of trust.

                        See, when you start coming out to say cultural change introduced by minorities are bad, you are making the argument that all of the values they have, all of the culture they inherited--their identities--are a foreign, corrupting influence to some pristine, unchanging Americana that never was. Yet, you think the Left is responsible for identity politics. You wonder why the minorities are getting restless.

                        Speaking of that essential America. Does that include Irish immigrants? Germans? Italians? All of them came in immigration waves that incited the same of backlash. You saying America is going to be made better with less of them?

                        Btw, allegation of discriminatory practice is not an attack on all white men. It's a critique on white men doing the hiring. Your defense of Trump, Sessions, Bannon and Flynn as cultural vengeance for minority activism is the kind of behavior that the BLM should cut checks for.
                        Yeah, embracing American values by calling the vast majority of Americans who want to limit or reduce immigrants racist. Yep, real "American values" right there.

                        An insult is a presumption that all of your ideas are good and you can only possibly improve to a nation's constitution. I certainly don't go to Russia and insist that I would be nothing but positive and everyone who has skepticism about my presence is a downright no good racist that doesn't know a thing about true "Russian values."


                        There is a way to propose the common sense measures you talk of without coming off as offensive or bigoted
                        No there isn't. When offered a perfectly reasonable argument about why Americans do not want unlimited immigration from Asia, you said it was insulting. So whatever. Trump should just do whatever he wants, because he's never going to please you.

                        Hey let's have border security like we agreed to in 2007 on bipartisan terms! -Hitler
                        Hey let's restrict immigration from nations that export terrorists! -Hitler
                        Hey let's have some augmented security screening from nations that export terrorists! -Hitler
                        Hey let's not allow illegal immigrants to public benefits! -Hitler
                        Last edited by GVChamp; 19 Nov 16,, 23:18.
                        "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by GVChamp View Post


                          No there isn't. When offered a perfectly reasonable argument about why Americans do not want unlimited immigration from Asia, you said it was insulting. So whatever. Trump should just do whatever he wants, because he's never going to please you.

                          Hey let's have border security like we agreed to in 2007 on bipartisan terms! -Hitler
                          Hey let's restrict immigration from nations that export terrorists! -Hitler
                          Hey let's have some augmented security screening from nations that export terrorists! -Hitler
                          Hey let's not allow illegal immigrants to public benefits! -Hitler
                          I didn't say any of that, I think you are mixing up posts

                          I said unlimited immigration, was a strawman argument, as no one is proposing to bring 1 billion asians. Even at current levels of immigration, the total population of the US mid century would be at most 500 million

                          Regarding the second part of your argument it kinda goes both ways.


                          Mass Deportation does raise concerns about humanness - You are calling me a racist!
                          A border wall is a dumb idea and infeasible - You are calling me a racist!
                          A religious test on immigration might be against American values - You are calling me a racist!
                          Last edited by InExile; 20 Nov 16,, 06:48.

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                          • #43
                            One of these statements sounds bigoted and inflamatory and one sounds like common sense


                            When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.
                            We cannot tolerate illegal immigration and we must stop it. For years before Bill Clinton became President, Washington talked tough but failed to act. In 1992, our borders might as well not have existed. The border was under-patrolled, and what patrols there were, were under-equipped. Drugs flowed freely. Illegal immigration was rampant. Criminal immigrants, deported after committing crimes in America, returned the very next day to commit crimes again. President Clinton is making our border a place where the law is respected and drugs and illegal immigrants are turned away.

                            http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16...l-crying-wolf/
                            Last edited by InExile; 20 Nov 16,, 00:00.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by InExile View Post
                              One of these statements sounds bigoted and inflamatory and one sounds like common sense
                              Whether or not it sounds bigoted isn't what matters, what matters is the point that border control matters because people like this do cross over.

                              In Oz, people are detained in less than ideal conditions that aren't satisfactory because these people need to be vetted - much like someone applying for a visa. In Oz, passport holders don't have prescribed offenses against them. You can't get a passport if you do. Rape is one of them.

                              In Mexico - an absolute shit hole with paramilitary drug forces, is at best a dangerous place for unaccompanied minors to pass through. Even the Huffington Post mentions as such. http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/ent...rape_n_5806972

                              In Australia and New Zealand, you pass through smart gates that scan your face and do background checks.

                              In the U.S election cycle that sounds "bigoted".

                              Well, at least someone mentioned the border. It certainly wasn't Hillary. It seems as though the cry of "racist" should preclude any consideration of actual policy. It would seem that the vast majority of complaints against Trump supporters, revolve around shoving them into the white box.

                              Women shouldn't vote for Trump because of "Grab them by the pussy" Rather than the well being of their kids.
                              Hispanics shouldn't vote for Trump because he emphasised the bad and not the good of ethnic migration, rather than the problems that occur when you're perceived to have a lax border.
                              Military Vets knocking themselves off at astronomical rates is not an either issue, because it pales in comparison to "racist".

                              Imagine the pussyfooting PC crap one has to put across just to say you need a secure border, rather than just saying it crudely in terms everyone understands. No... there's no problem with political correctness in the U.S. at all.
                              Last edited by Chunder; 20 Nov 16,, 01:27.
                              Ego Numquam

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                                Hey let's have border security like we agreed to in 2007 on bipartisan terms! -Hitler
                                Hey let's restrict immigration from nations that export terrorists! -Hitler
                                Hey let's have some augmented security screening from nations that export terrorists! -Hitler
                                Hey let's not allow illegal immigrants to public benefits! -Hitler
                                It'd be helpful in your quest to combat an unfair label, if you would take time to reflect on where Asian Americans historically stood on those issues before start accusing them of imagined sins. Sensible border control and anti-terrorism were not unpopular policies among Asian American voters, until that became wedded to nativism starting with the Tea Party.

                                Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                                Yeah, embracing American values by calling the vast majority of Americans who want to limit or reduce immigrants racist. Yep, real "American values" right there.
                                Come on, calling people names are un-American now? Here I was thinking that's the national past time.

                                On a serious note: There was no wider Asian opposition to restriction on illegal immigration from Clinton to GW Bush. There's no real consensus on appropriate measures to combat terrorism. Trump's racism is what triggered real partisan alignment in that ethnic group.

                                You've just expanded your agenda from illegal border-crossers from south of the continent to staunching the flow of skilled legal immigration. Your stated reason is that now your new group of unlikable immigrants are diluting some unchanging Americanness outside of a knowledge of the constitution or obedience of laws. It's an entirely familiar script: identity politics masquerading as legitimate national security and legal concerns, but mobilized to serve cultural/political ends.

                                And that's why Asian voters are moving away from the GOP. If that's the hardball the President-elect wants to play during his administration, it's not just gonna be BLM.

                                Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                                An insult is a presumption that all of your ideas are good and you can only possibly improve to a nation's constitution.
                                It's not about following the laws, or affecting the income of blue collar Americans, then. It's about maintaining a cultural stasis in a configuration that keeps what ever you identify as "American," to the exclusion of others, in power.
                                Last edited by Triple C; 20 Nov 16,, 06:11.
                                All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                                -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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