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  • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Okay, I am not a conservative...

    I am issue by issue.
    Okay. So, you're an independent...another label, but happily more adjective than noun.

    Totally agree with you on infrastructure projects...I've never seen the Interstates in such bad condition. If ever there was an issue the GOP could score points on, this is it. Raise the gas tax a nickle and start fixing things up. I'd bet my bottom dollar, the GOP would gain wide support once the projects got started, both for the employment gains and the improvement in infrastructure safety.
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

    Comment


    • Originally posted by astralis View Post
      pari,



      given the way politics has evolved in the country over the last 40 years, either side has less and less inclination and political incentive to work with each other. gerrymandering means it's more lucrative politically (and economically) to argue with each other as opposed to working with each other. instead of appealing to a wider audience, one appeals to the politically-motivated.

      thus it's not a case of politicians tricking the people, it's a case of vocal/dedicated minorities DEMANDING this of their politician. see the Tea Party revolt, for instance.
      "So, what's new?" That's what a historian looking at the whole picture of American politics since 1800 would say I don't mean to excuse these phases of utter lack of cooperation between and within the parties. But it does say something about the phenomenon of recurring political cycles, the causes of which, if understood, would tell us more about what is happening today and where it is leading.
      To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

      Comment


      • JAD,

        But it does say something about the phenomenon of recurring political cycles, the causes of which, if understood, would tell us more about what is happening today and where it is leading.
        i don't think it's simply an issue of cycles. IE, one of the reasons why party discipline is falling apart (amongst both parties, but especially among Republicans) is because communication technology combined with the unprecedented flow of money into politics means that party bagmen don't have quite the same power they used to have.

        similarly, things that used to allow for greater party cooperation-- like pork-barreling, or even just the fact that you were STUCK in DC with your fellow Congressmen because of the inefficiency of travel/lack of need-- have disappeared.

        there's a mix of new technological and cultural factors. the era of the big 3 TV channels is long over; people are now getting their "facts" from sources that tend to generally support their existing beliefs (like pari's article above).

        i do see similarities here and there with previous historical episodes, but frankly i can't see enough of them where it's a good indicator of "what is happening today and where it is leading". it seems to me demographics would be a better predictor than historical models, and even then that's problematic.

        besides, these cycles are often driven by completely unpredictable events.
        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

        Comment


        • Originally posted by astralis View Post
          JAD,



          i don't think it's simply an issue of cycles. IE, one of the reasons why party discipline is falling apart (amongst both parties, but especially among Republicans) is because communication technology combined with the unprecedented flow of money into politics means that party bagmen don't have quite the same power they used to have.

          similarly, things that used to allow for greater party cooperation-- like pork-barreling, or even just the fact that you were STUCK in DC with your fellow Congressmen because of the inefficiency of travel/lack of need-- have disappeared.

          there's a mix of new technological and cultural factors. the era of the big 3 TV channels is long over; people are now getting their "facts" from sources that tend to generally support their existing beliefs (like pari's article above).

          i do see similarities here and there with previous historical episodes, but frankly i can't see enough of them where it's a good indicator of "what is happening today and where it is leading". it seems to me demographics would be a better predictor than historical models, and even then that's problematic.

          besides, these cycles are often driven by completely unpredictable events.

          You make some excellent points. However, what I was saying, in effect, is that the causes of cycles, if we can discern them, open up an understanding of how they come about. True, in the present cycle, technology, rapid travel, and greater transparency play a role in illustrating the behavior of the political players and parties. But the underlying force is always a tendency to restore equilibrium after a long period of political imbalance either to the right or the left. In short, human nature expressed en mass--that is, as a society--will never change no matter modern innovations come along.
          To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

          Comment


          • All I have to say is, in a nation of 330 million, do we not have anyone else other than a Clinton and a Bush?

            I don't know who I will vote for. I know I will not vote for Clinton, Bush, Sanders, and Christie.

            I like Walker. Crush the greedy unions!
            "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by gunnut View Post
              All I have to say is, in a nation of 330 million, do we not have anyone else other than a Clinton and a Bush?
              My money is on Clinton vs Rubio in the election.

              That said, Trump vs Sanders would be more entertaining in a morbid sort of way.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                Okay. So, you're an independent...another label, but happily more adjective than noun.

                Totally agree with you on infrastructure projects...I've never seen the Interstates in such bad condition. If ever there was an issue the GOP could score points on, this is it. Raise the gas tax a nickle and start fixing things up. I'd bet my bottom dollar, the GOP would gain wide support once the projects got started, both for the employment gains and the improvement in infrastructure safety.
                Unfortunately an influential part of the GOP has been captured by people who think government spending on stuff like infrastructure - especially if it is funded by borrowing (even at close to zero interest) is only mildly better than molesting children (in the case of Bill Donahue he's more likely to defend the latter than the former). it should be a no brainer.

                On a related note, there is a new bumper sticker doing the rounds here that takes aim at our conservative government: 'Abbott's Australia - meaner, dumber, hotter'. Seems a neat summary of a particular segment of conservatism at the moment.
                sigpic

                Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

                Comment


                • ^Like BigFella

                  JAD & Asty,

                  Thanks for reminding me that I purport to be a historian and I overlooked my history. redface (NOTE: Emojis ain't working)

                  JAD, you are right.

                  About the ONLY times in our history where we were in concert was during a)the Era of Good Feelings and b) Post Pearl Harbor. The remainder of our history our various political parties treated our politics as little more than blood sport...and sometimes it did become quite bloody. Bleeding Kansas and Preston v Brooks are nto the only instances of bloody conflict in our political past. Today we see the weak beer of Ted Cruz calling out Mitch McConnell....yawn.

                  Asty,

                  The current "news" cycle and corporate money of today are little different than the money of the Robber Barons of the late 19th Century, the multiple newspapers of the 1830s-1870s who editorialized on their front pages, the waving of the Bloody Shirt in Post Bellum politics and durign the several Red Scares/Yellow Perils/inserthatedimmigrantgrouphere.

                  The single greatest catalyst for the growth of the US Postal Service during the early republic were the multiple daily newspapers published by all the various political organs. Heard a great program on Backstory about the history of the USPS. The historians there stated in the 1840s/1850s it was normal for a newspaper published in Baltimore on Monday was being read in the backwoods of Arkansas on Friday...delivered there by the USPS.

                  The electorates of the 1830s-1860s were very well informed...albeit they often did not willing listen to opposing views.



                  Its just a difference of means and technologies.
                  “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                  Mark Twain

                  Comment


                  • One of the things I learned at the war college, and then practiced over the next three years on the Joint Staff J-3 was how to get together with the J-2/J-5 folks and look at a region and identify those countries sliding inexorably toward chaos. I have seen the enemy and it is us. There is a reckoning coming, and it ain't going to be pretty. The only question I have is the spark. What will it be; yet another unconstitutional executive order too many? Economic collapse? HANGINGCHADEX II? Pick your poison. I know a lot of otherwise sane, law abiding people, with skills, who are ready to rumble yesterday.

                    Comment


                    • AR,

                      The current "news" cycle and corporate money of today are little different than the money of the Robber Barons of the late 19th Century, the multiple newspapers of the 1830s-1870s who editorialized on their front pages, the waving of the Bloody Shirt in Post Bellum politics and durign the several Red Scares/Yellow Perils/inserthatedimmigrantgrouphere.

                      The single greatest catalyst for the growth of the US Postal Service during the early republic were the multiple daily newspapers published by all the various political organs. Heard a great program on Backstory about the history of the USPS. The historians there stated in the 1840s/1850s it was normal for a newspaper published in Baltimore on Monday was being read in the backwoods of Arkansas on Friday...delivered there by the USPS.

                      The electorates of the 1830s-1860s were very well informed...albeit they often did not willing listen to opposing views.
                      i see some similarities. most disturbing one being how the wealthy started to create their own political machines.

                      there are quite a few differences, though, mostly that absent the overarching issue of slavery, ideology didn't become a big thing until the 1890s. before that it was mostly rent-seeking, and even afterwards.

                      we're in a sort of strange place in that relatively speaking, politics is cleaner than before, which ironically makes all the fights ideological ones.

                      ---

                      OTOH, going back to my original argument, i'm really not sure how all of this has a predictive value, though. i don't really believe in JAD's equilibrium theory, primarily because 1.) the poles change over time, and 2.) humans aren't particles, and they're driven by events/people.

                      regarding 1.), for instance, today many conservatives/libertarians hold values that would have been considered socially degenerate back 50 years ago (gay marriage? interracial marriage?).

                      2.), politics is event driven. here's another historical example. without Vietnam simultaneously shattering people's trust in government, the splitting of the urban liberal and the Southern Democrats over things like the war, counterculture, and civil rights, we might still know Reagan today for Bedtime for Bonzo. Goldwater would have been little more than a footnote, a conservative aberration to the Eisenhower Republican.

                      politics may have a cycle but it's all driven by mostly unpredictable events.
                      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                      Comment


                      • I seem to remember an $800 billion stimulus package that was passed, supposed to be full of Shovel Ready Jobs. But we were lied to, and eventually the President had to admit there were no "shovel ready jobs" That stimulus package passed with plenty of support from people "who think government spending on stuff like infrastructure - especially if it is funded by borrowing (even at close to zero interest) is only mildly better than molesting children" Not sure why the dig at child molester had to be thrown in there, but the only child molester who's made the news recently was Jeff Epstein, a friend of Bill Clinton, who isn't a member of the GOP. Infrastructure spending that actually results in jobs is an issue that can be supported.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by desertswo View Post
                          One of the things I learned at the war college, and then practiced over the next three years on the Joint Staff J-3 was how to get together with the J-2/J-5 folks and look at a region and identify those countries sliding inexorably toward chaos. I have seen the enemy and it is us. There is a reckoning coming, and it ain't going to be pretty. The only question I have is the spark. What will it be; yet another unconstitutional executive order too many? Economic collapse? HANGINGCHADEX II? Pick your poison. I know a lot of otherwise sane, law abiding people, with skills, who are ready to rumble yesterday.
                          Captain Parul Gri,Sir,one of the best ways ever invented to connect people is not Nokia,but palinka.And what I hear from some lads is somewhat similar to what you say.
                          An old chap,told me a story.Back in 87-88 he sometimes had to stay in line for groceries on the way home from office.And he heard comments around,like ''of course communism will be over soon,can't you see a Colonel standing in line?''
                          You ain't that bad,but my point is that if mid-junior ranks say there are issues that don't have a solution,you're pretty advanced on the path to problems.

                          And the fundamental issue is the have's at some point get sick of won't have/have not's.You have a synergy between class struggle,cultural conflict and tribal/racial ethnic differences.Western Europe is even worse in that respect.
                          We may be allright in many respects,but you going bust is pretty much the white elephant in the room security wise.Screw Russia,they don't have the balls/reason for a fight to the death.
                          Those who know don't speak
                          He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by looking4NSFS View Post
                            I seem to remember an $800 billion stimulus package that was passed, supposed to be full of Shovel Ready Jobs. But we were lied to, and eventually the President had to admit there were no "shovel ready jobs"
                            I'll be so happy when this fucking administration is gone. I don't even care if it's another Democrat in office. All the good intentions and good feelings and hope and change and whatever else duped people into voting this clown..what have they accomplished? Every "achievement" has a gigantic asterisk attached to it.
                            “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                            Comment


                            • TH,

                              All the good intentions and good feelings and hope and change and whatever else duped people into voting this clown..what have they accomplished? Every "achievement" has a gigantic asterisk attached to it.
                              i dunno...

                              unemployment rate, jan 2009: 7.8%
                              unemployment rate, jun 2015: 5.3%

                              US deficit, jan 2009: $485 billion
                              US deficit, jun 2015: $431 billion

                              US uninsured rate, jan 2009: 16.1%
                              US uninsured rate, jun 2015: 11.4%

                              even if you're not inclined to give Obama all the credit...you can't say that the US is worse off today than when Obama took office.

                              that's something the administration prior to his could not say.
                              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                                TH,
                                i dunno...

                                unemployment rate, jan 2009: 7.8%
                                unemployment rate, jun 2015: 5.3%

                                US deficit, jan 2009: $485 billion
                                US deficit, jun 2015: $431 billion

                                US uninsured rate, jan 2009: 16.1%
                                US uninsured rate, jun 2015: 11.4%

                                even if you're not inclined to give Obama all the credit...you can't say that the US is worse off today than when Obama took office.
                                Asterisks all around.

                                The unemployment rate? That's a lot of smoke and mirrors bullshit that hides a multitude of problems.
                                "Right now, as many as 30 million Americans are either out of work or severely underemployed."

                                Hell, let's ask a staunch conservative and well known anti-liberal what he thinks of that 5.3%:

                                “Real unemployment, government figures, excludes those people who have given up looking for work and those people who are working part-time when they want to work full-time. If you add those numbers together government statistics tell you that real unemployment in America is over 11%. Youth unemployment, which we never talk about, is 18%. African-American youth unemployment is close to 30%.”

                                How much of the deficit is due to sequestration? In other words, the cuts that no Democrat worth his tax-and-spend soul would ever voluntarily make?

                                The uninsured rate...even Jimmy Fallon called that one: "It’s amazing what you can achieve when you make something mandatory and fine people if they don’t do it and then keep extending the deadline for months". And I'm waiting to see what the long-term effects of the ACA on the economy are.

                                Sorry, still not buying it. The man is an arrogant egotistical naif that believes his own press. "Messiah complex" indeed.

                                About the only thing Obama has managed to do was lift the idiotic ban on gays in the military and give the go order to take out Bin Laden.

                                Originally posted by astralis View Post
                                that's something the administration prior to his could not say.
                                It's interesting that criticism of Obama is invariably met by a finger pointing at Bush. Seriously could you move the goalposts a little closer?

                                Never said I was particularly enamored with George W. Bush. But I did say I wouldn't even mind another Democrat in office.
                                “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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