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  • Originally posted by YellowFever View Post
    I wonder how the voters of the state of Washington feel about having voted for Colin Powell and Faith Spotted Eagle.

    I'm sure they thought they were voting for Hillary.

    Looks like voters got disenfranchised....
    The idea there was to put forth a moderate Republican that Congressional Republicans could defect to.

    Of course it backfired.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
      Dok:

      Thanks for the sources. However I don't see any reference in the US ambassador's statement or in the article that show he condoned the wiretaps. Quoting from your original post, you said:


      It seems you created the quote to make a point, which is fine, as long as it captures the sense of what the guy actually said. I don't think it does in this case, but obviously he didn't condemn the wiretapping, and maybe he should have. In any case, they came from a whistle blower within the government which is altogether different than from hacking by a foreign government.
      What the Embassy said and did is they pressed (sorry, suggested) to make a law to protect the whistleblower(s) in this case and to form a special prosecutor office for the content of the tapes (not the source).

      It was not a quote, but a paraphrase.
      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
        Thanks. Now all I have to do is figure out what GW means. :)
        Global Warming. You've spent enough time in that thread that I thought you'd get it.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Wooglin View Post
          Global Warming. You've spent enough time in that thread that I thought you'd get it.
          He is uber-trolling you :)

          Not that he is like that, but he likes it.
          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

          Comment


          • But no mind. Let daddy fix you a hot toddy and bring you your teddy bear to hug.
            watching JAD bring a gun to YF's knife-fight is at once fascinating and horrifying...lol. the man is on a roll!
            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

            Comment


            • Originally posted by astralis View Post
              watching JAD bring a gun to YF's knife-fight is at once fascinating and horrifying...lol. the man is on a roll!
              Asty:

              I wouldn't count YF out. He's probably off in his safe place planning his next move.


              Speaking of moves, here is Paul Krugman's latest Chicken Little piece. He implies Trump would be at home as a player in the narrative of the decline of the Roman Empire. The history of the Roman Empire is well worth reading. It contains many parallels to later declines, but assigning Trump a role in the "decline" of the US at this early date is both fanciful and premature. If Krugman is saying the same thing a year from now, we might seriously consider his opinion. Meanwhile an his anxiety attack isn't enough to go on.


              http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/19/op...blics-end.html

              How Republics End
              [Paul Krugman]

              Paul Krugman DEC. 19, 2016

              Many people are reacting to the rise of Trumpism and nativist movements in Europe by reading history — specifically, the history of the 1930s. And they are right to do so. It takes willful blindness not to see the parallels between the rise of fascism and our current political nightmare.

              But the ’30s isn’t the only era with lessons to teach us. Lately I’ve been reading a lot about the ancient world. Initially, I have to admit, I was doing it for entertainment and as a refuge from news that gets worse with each passing day. But I couldn’t help noticing the contemporary resonances of some Roman history — specifically, the tale of how the Roman Republic fell.

              Here’s what I learned: Republican institutions don’t protect against tyranny when powerful people start defying political norms. And tyranny, when it comes, can flourish even while maintaining a republican facade.

              On the first point: Roman politics involved fierce competition among ambitious men. But for centuries that competition was constrained by some seemingly unbreakable rules. Here’s what Adrian Goldsworthy’s “In the Name of Rome” says: “However important it was for an individual to win fame and add to his and his family’s reputation, this should always be subordinated to the good of the Republic … no disappointed Roman politician sought the aid of a foreign power.”

              America used to be like that, with prominent senators declaring that we must stop “partisan politics at the water’s edge.” But now we have a president-elect who openly asked Russia to help smear his opponent, and all indications are that the bulk of his party was and is just fine with that. (A new poll shows that Republican approval of Vladimir Putin has surged even though — or, more likely, precisely because — it has become clear that Russian intervention played an important role in the U.S. election.) Winning domestic political struggles is all that matters, the good of the republic be damned.
              Continue reading the main story

              And what happens to the republic as a result? Famously, on paper the transformation of Rome from republic to empire never happened. Officially, imperial Rome was still ruled by a Senate that just happened to defer to the emperor, whose title originally just meant “commander,” on everything that mattered. We may not go down exactly the same route — although are we even sure of that? — but the process of destroying democratic substance while preserving forms is already underway.
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              Consider what just happened in North Carolina. The voters made a clear choice, electing a Democratic governor. The Republican legislature didn’t openly overturn the result — not this time, anyway — but it effectively stripped the governor’s office of power, ensuring that the will of the voters wouldn’t actually matter.

              Combine this sort of thing with continuing efforts to disenfranchise or at least discourage voting by minority groups, and you have the potential making of a de facto one-party state: one that maintains the fiction of democracy, but has rigged the game so that the other side can never win.

              Why is this happening? I’m not asking why white working-class voters support politicians whose policies will hurt them — I’ll be coming back to that issue in future columns. My question, instead, is why one party’s politicians and officials no longer seem to care about what we used to think were essential American values. And let’s be clear: This is a Republican story, not a case of “both sides do it.”

              So what’s driving this story? I don’t think it’s truly ideological. Supposedly free-market politicians are already discovering that crony capitalism is fine as long as it involves the right cronies. It does have to do with class warfare — redistribution from the poor and the middle class to the wealthy is a consistent theme of all modern Republican policies. But what directly drives the attack on democracy, I’d argue, is simple careerism on the part of people who are apparatchiks within a system insulated from outside pressures by gerrymandered districts, unshakable partisan loyalty, and lots and lots of plutocratic financial support.

              For such people, toeing the party line and defending the party’s rule are all that matters. And if they sometimes seem consumed with rage at anyone who challenges their actions, well, that’s how hacks always respond when called on their hackery.

              One thing all of this makes clear is that the sickness of American politics didn’t begin with Donald Trump, any more than the sickness of the Roman Republic began with Caesar. The erosion of democratic foundations has been underway for decades, and there’s no guarantee that we will ever be able to recover.

              But if there is any hope of redemption, it will have to begin with a clear recognition of how bad things are. American democracy is very much on the edge.
              To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post

                I wouldn't count YF out. He's probably off in his safe place planning his next move.
                I am both bloodied and bowed.

                However, in this politically correct age we live in, I take solace in the fact that you are a white male and I am being discriminated against
                :P

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                  Asty:

                  I wouldn't count YF out. He's probably off in his safe place planning his next move.


                  Speaking of moves, here is Paul Krugman's latest Chicken Little piece. He implies Trump would be at home as a player in the narrative of the decline of the Roman Empire. The history of the Roman Empire is well worth reading. It contains many parallels to later declines, but assigning Trump a role in the "decline" of the US at this early date is both fanciful and premature. If Krugman is saying the same thing a year from now, we might seriously consider his opinion. Meanwhile an his anxiety attack isn't enough to go on.
                  Rome went through two Civil Wars and Triumvirates before Octavian became Augustus.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                    He is uber-trolling you :)

                    Not that he is like that, but he likes it.
                    Sneaky

                    Comment


                    • Krugman is such a drama queen.

                      Some context on Russia's favorability ratings:
                      http://www.politico.com/story/2016/1...support-232714
                      And it's even higher today: 37 percent of Republicans view Putin favorably, the poll found in December
                      Contrast:
                      http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...artisan-issue/
                      The share of Americans who had a favorable opinion of Russia in that time has ranged from 24 percent to 66 percent, a span of 42 percentage points.
                      Krugman is a political hack, which means he engages in the normal politics of "we have always been at war with East Asia." But Russia used to, as in, less than 8 years ago, a POPULAR nation, among BOTH parties. The "favorability" rate of Putin among Republicans is not exactly all that odd historically.

                      But again, Krugman is a political hack, engaged in 1984 political propaganda. He certainly thinks he's the guy saving democracy: he's the one who's actually dragging into the mud, just as much as Trump.

                      It's also amusing for a Progressive to subscribe the Great Man view of history: "The Republic fell because Great Men broke the norms!" Kinda simplistic and without nuance.

                      It's also amusing to see a legislative branch asserting power over the executive as a sign of our impending Empire. But Paul Krugman's view of history is pretty shitty: He was also talking about how the filibuster killed Poland, conveniently right when the filibuster was happening to hurt his political agenda. I am sure now he'll rediscover the virtues of empowering the minority.



                      For such people, toeing the party line and defending the party’s rule are all that matters. And if they sometimes seem consumed with rage at anyone who challenges their actions, well, that’s how hacks always respond when called on their hackery.
                      Oh I definitely agree.



                      Modern Americans will accept government agents molesting children and grandmothers in airports in the name of "security." They'll accept the full lockdown of entire cities to chase down bleeding-out teenagers. And apparently we'll tolerate our commander-in-chief announcing he has the right to assassinate American citizens without due process without needing to report to anyone or even explain the process behind his extra-judicial targeting.

                      So, yeah, there's a damn better chance of America becoming a dictatorship than people give it credit for, but the signs have all been the year for a while. And I'm not talking about that wimpy little Patriot Act and people whining about the government looking at your library history, or water-boarding non-Americans, or collateral damage with drone strikes, or the government collecting meta-data, or any of the other stupid crap that some people whine about. I'm worried about Americans willing to surrender their OWN rights over essentially nothing.
                      "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

                      Comment


                      • JAD,

                        It contains many parallels to later declines, but assigning Trump a role in the "decline" of the US at this early date is both fanciful and premature.
                        hmm, my reading of the piece is that he identifies the problem as being far more than just Trump:

                        One thing all of this makes clear is that the sickness of American politics didn’t begin with Donald Trump, any more than the sickness of the Roman Republic began with Caesar. The erosion of democratic foundations has been underway for decades, and there’s no guarantee that we will ever be able to recover.
                        I do agree he's being rather dramatic about it, because comparatively we are still more free than we were in the 1960s. there ARE disturbing trends but these are the trends of the last 10-15 years, and not decades.

                        for instance, i don't think it's an accident that we've had a situation where twice now in less than two decades we've had a difference between the popular vote and an electoral one. the growing rural-urban divide, which i think is driven far more by cultural disagreements and not so much economic ones (sorry Bernie).

                        the most worrying trend to me is how compromise is no longer politically incentivized, while conflict is. you'll see a lot more norm-breaking-- just like this election-- which means still further discord. look at the way the Republicans are playing in North Carolina, for instance, contesting the Dem governorship win and upon losing, doing their best to poison the well by stripping the new governor of power.
                        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                        Comment


                        • GVChamp,

                          But Russia used to, as in, less than 8 years ago, a POPULAR nation, among BOTH parties. The "favorability" rate of Putin among Republicans is not exactly all that odd historically.
                          you say this as if there's been no change in the behavior of Russia to the US in the last 8 years...
                          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                            http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/texas...nder/371421191
                            Just goes to show, anybody who makes a play for celebrity-hood better have a clean resume. Otherwise, the media will eat your lunch.
                            What! Are you saying one better not lie because the media will eat you alive? When did this start?
                            Last edited by tbm3fan; 21 Dec 16,, 04:03.

                            Comment


                            • from nick kristof's column today.

                              Click image for larger version

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                              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                                GVChamp,



                                you say this as if there's been no change in the behavior of Russia to the US in the last 8 years...
                                I mean and only mean Russia was a popular country 8 years ago. I think it was pretty stupid to have a fond opinion of Russia 8 years ago. I think it was pretty stupid to have a fond opinion of Russia 16 years ago. Why would we assume Russia is an ally after Kosovo and Grozny 2.0?
                                "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

                                Comment

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