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  • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
    Dor:

    I don't think we are talking about the same thing. The concept of loyal opposition rests on the premise that the goal of all parties in enacting legislation is the greatest public good. So, loyal means loyal to the good of the country, not to the majority party. Opposition needs no explanation.
    We are on the same page.

    Ideally it works like this: If you propose legislation and you need my support, you will be inclined to make changes to satisfy me. I might find flaws you did not see. Or, I might want the legislation to also cover X and Y. If we iron out all our differences, then the final form of the legislation will have greater support and do the most public good.
    Yeah, that didn't happen for about five years ... that why we have QE forever: zero GOPer congressional support for fiscal measures to head off a serious national threat. Government shut-down kind of zero support. Anti-America's best interest kind of zero support. Remember?

    We won't forget.

    This is how most of the business of legislating takes place. But not always, as the recent gridlock in Congress attests.
    Oh, so you DO remember!


    To your point about the bipartisan support for the 2001 Iraq invasion, those who supported it from both parties in Congress chose what they perceived to be the greater good. There is an old saying that illustrates what happened: It is better to err on the side of trust than it is to err on the side of distrust. It came down to the president saying we must act to protect our national security and here's the evidence; do you trust him or not?
    Yeah, that's the one. That's the one where the GOPer-in-Chief abused the opposition's loyalty to the best interests of the nation for his own petty personal vendetta.

    Never again.
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DOR View Post
      We are on the same page.



      Yeah, that didn't happen for about five years ... that why we have QE forever: zero GOPer congressional support for fiscal measures to head off a serious national threat. Government shut-down kind of zero support. Anti-America's best interest kind of zero support. Remember?

      We won't forget.



      Oh, so you DO remember!




      Yeah, that's the one. That's the one where the GOPer-in-Chief abused the opposition's loyalty to the best interests of the nation for his own petty personal vendetta.

      Never again.

      Dor:

      Perpetuating the gridlock by those who feel victimized by it and who shouted the loudest against makes them no better than those who caused it.
      To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DOR View Post
        Yeah, that didn't happen for about five years ... that why we have QE forever: zero GOPer congressional support for fiscal measures to head off a serious national threat. Government shut-down kind of zero support.
        I seem to remember you assuring me that QE forever wouldn't happen and as I recall it the Government shut down was about cutting the budget.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by YellowFever View Post
          I don't know much about this, nor do I really care, but the Salon article states that:

          Suprun has said he was a first responder during the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, and has now been accused of falsifying that claim. Those accusations, however, revolve around evidence that Suprun was not in New York during or after 9/11, when he has never claimed he was. Suprun says he responded to the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon as a volunteer firefighter in northern Virginia. Salon has confirmed that Suprun worked at various Virginia fire departments between 1994 and about 2004.
          When the article above it doesn't even mention NY, instead saying:


          "He claimed to be a first responder with the Manassas Park [Virginia] Fire Department on September 11, 2001 and personally told us stories 'I was fighting fire that day at the Pentagon.’ No, I was on a medic unit that day at the Pentagon and you make a phone call to Manassas Park and you find out that he wasn't even employed there until October 2001,” said a first responder who knows Suprun and only agreed to speak about him if his identity was concealed.

          The City of Manassas Park confirmed to WFAA that it hired Suprun on October 10, 2001, one month after the 9/11 attacks.

          The fire chief there added that his department never even responded to the Pentagon or any of the 9/11 sites.
          In fact, nothing in the Salon article actually refutes the WFAA report but they make it sound like it does. How is "fake news" worse than this?

          Comment


          • I actually like QE forever and consider that a preferable alternative to what we were going to get. I'd trust fiscal stimulus more if I could trust America could build infrastructure, and I'd trust America's ability to build infrastructure if a bipartisan group of Senators pressure-washed those stupid protestors out of the way and got DAPL finished.

            Instead it's more trains....wooo...Acela line....and a bunch of progressives finger-waving that we can't do construction because then all the jobs will go to white men.
            "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Wooglin View Post
              In fact, nothing in the Salon article actually refutes the WFAA report but they make it sound like it does. How is "fake news" worse than this?
              Was not my intention but I think it clearly demonstrates what "real" news is supposed to be like as opposed to "fake" news.

              Look at the headlines between the two articles.

              LoL.......Salon is as fake as anything Breibart ever put out.
              Last edited by YellowFever; 17 Dec 16,, 22:03.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DOR View Post

                Yeah, that's the one. That's the one where the GOPer-in-Chief abused the opposition's loyalty to the best interests of the nation for his own petty personal vendetta.

                Never again.
                Oh Please spare us the semantics. It's a far cry from "loyalty to the nation" to "the party" If only the dems gave as much of a damn about Hacking a national security program a-la the F-35, as opposed to hacking a private organisation, I.E the DNC , one might take "loyal opposition" a little more seriously.

                To be sure, your CIC has warned of serious consequences, 'some public, and others you won't hear about' over the supernational ego of the DNC.

                Why is it the blinkers come on so selectively when you're partisan.
                Ego Numquam

                Comment


                • /\ Like

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Chunder View Post
                    If only the dems gave as much of a damn about Hacking a national security program a-la the F-35, as opposed to hacking a private organisation, I.E the DNC , one might take "loyal opposition" a little more seriously.
                    Or indeed the White House, or The State Department. I will admit I understand the anger currently directed at the Russians. It is the use of it in the civil war the Dems are conducting against conservatism that is misplaced.
                    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                    Leibniz

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                      Dor:

                      Perpetuating the gridlock by those who feel victimized by it and who shouted the loudest against makes them no better than those who caused it.
                      OK. No better than. Got it.



                      Ignoring history is unwise.
                      Falling for the same trick twice is dumb.
                      Playing by what used to be the rules of the game (loyal opposition) after the other guys already went nuclear (government shut-down attempts under a national threat) is both dumb and unwise.
                      Trust me?
                      I'm an economist!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by snapper View Post
                        I seem to remember you assuring me that QE forever wouldn't happen and as I recall it the Government shut down was about cutting the budget.
                        What part of "Government shut down was about cutting the budget" is in conflict with "actively working against the national interests -- by obstructing efforts to minimize the worst effects of the worst economic and financial crisis in living memory -- for mere partisan political interests" ?

                        Did any macroeconomist ever suggust letting monetary policy alone shore up a staggering economy? No, because it would be highly inefficient ... except, then the obstructionsts could claim the administration they refused to help was incompetent.

                        For their own partisan interests.

                        And, against the national interest.

                        In a time of dire national emergency.

                        Never again.
                        Trust me?
                        I'm an economist!

                        Comment


                        • pari,

                          I will admit I understand the anger currently directed at the Russians. It is the use of it in the civil war the Dems are conducting against conservatism that is misplaced.
                          lol ok. i'm sure conservatives have never attacked the Obama administration regarding Russia ever...:-)

                          and i'm sure that's why GOP leaders are calling for an investigation too, because it's just a partisan trick the Dems are playing with the entire US intelligence apparatus.
                          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                          Comment


                          • http://www.wsj.com/articles/republic...ers-1481850043



                            Republican National Committee Security Foiled Russian Hackers
                            Investigation calls it a less aggressive and much less persistent effort than the hacks of the Democratic National Committee


                            President Barack Obama said the U.S. will take action against Russia for its alleged involvement in the U.S. presidential election, after intelligence officials concluded that Russian President Vladimir Putin personally authorized the hacking of institutions and members of the Democratic party.

                            By SHANE HARRIS, DEVLIN BARRETT and JULIAN E. BARNES

                            Updated Dec. 16, 2016 12:27 a.m. ET

                            Russian hackers tried to penetrate the computer networks of the Republican National Committee, using the same techniques that allowed them to infiltrate its Democratic counterpart, according to U.S. officials who have been briefed on the attempted intrusion.

                            But the intruders failed to get past security defenses on the RNC’s computer networks, the officials said. And people close to the investigation said it indicated a less aggressive and much less persistent effort by Russian intelligence to hack the Republican group than the Democratic National Committee. Only a single email account linked to a long-departed RNC staffer was targeted.

                            The disclosures came as a political furor grows over suspected Russian hacking of U.S. political organizations. The Central Intelligence Agency has concluded that Russian hackers, whom analysts say work for that country’s military and intelligence apparatus, stole emails from the DNC, as well as another Democratic organization and the chairman of Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign, to harm her candidacy and boost Republican Donald Trump’s chances of winning. Russia has denied the allegations.

                            The possibility that Russians tried and failed to infiltrate the RNC doesn’t necessarily conflict with the CIA’s conclusion. A senior U.S. official said analysts now believe what started as an information-gathering campaign aimed at both parties later took on a focus of leaked emails about Mrs. Clinton and Democrat.

                            Mr. Trump has discounted the U.S. intelligence assessments and disparaged intelligence officials. In a Twitter message Thursday, he wrote: “If Russia, or some other entity, was hacking, why did the White House wait so long to act? Why did they only complain after Hillary lost?”

                            The Obama administration warned for months that Russian hackers had tried to interfere with U.S. elections, and intelligence agencies issued an unusual public assessment in October warning Russia was behind the cyberattack.

                            In an NPR interview Thursday, President Barack Obama said the U.S. is considering retaliatory moves against Russia. “I think there is no doubt that when any foreign government tries to impact the integrity of our elections, that we need to take action, and we will,” he said. “At a time and a place of our own choosing. Some of it may be explicit and publicized; some of it may not be.”

                            Until now, few details had been disclosed about the nature of the targeting of Republican organizations, especially the flagship Republican National Committee, where hackers sent so-called phishing emails last spring to an email address there. Those emails were quarantined by a filter meant to detect spam as well as potentially malicious traffic that may carry viruses or trick recipients into divulging passwords, two officials said.

                            A third person familiar with the investigation said RNC staff members didn’t realize they had been the target of spies until June, after Democratic committee leaders revealed that hackers had successfully gained a foothold inside their networks. Once inside, they reportedly were able to access a trove of DNC opposition research on Mr. Trump, then a candidate.

                            RNC officials, concerned they too might have been compromised, called a private computer security firm, which in turn called the FBI and obtained information about what kinds of malicious emails to look for, the person said. Upon inspection, the RNC found that its electronic filters had blocked emails sent to a former employee matching the description they’d been warned about.

                            The apparently successful blocking of a Russian espionage operation offers one possible explanation why the GOP’s main political organization didn’t suffer the same fate as its Democratic counterpart—a deluge of leaked emails revealing private correspondence and internal strategy.

                            But the suspicion that Russians did try to break into the RNC, using the same techniques and tactics that worked so well on the Democrats, suggests that at least initially, they were trying to gather potentially incriminating or embarrassing information on both parties.


                            Hackers who overran the DNC also successfully stole and then published emails from Republican state-level officials on a website, DCLeaks, that private security experts have linked to the Russian operation allegedly targeting the DNC and the presidential campaign of Mrs. Clinton. The leaked GOP emails received relatively little public attention and consisted of mostly mundane and innocuous correspondence, including inquiries and complaints sent by constituents to generic addresses.

                            On Wednesday, Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina told CNN his campaign email system was hacked by Russian operators. Mr. Graham plans to hold hearings about the hacks, which all U.S. intelligence agencies said in a rare public statement in October were directed by the highest-levels of the Russian government to interfere with U.S. elections.

                            Those messages were conveyed to WikiLeaks, where they attracted far greater attention than any of the GOP emails posted on DCLeaks, and handed Russian President Vladimir Putin a public-relations victory.

                            “If you look at the leaks that came out most recently on the DNC, the Russian media were very, very quick to pick up the fact that, ‘See, the West is always lecturing us, and yet look at this primary system. Was it a truly level playing field?’ Which is something the Americans always criticize the Russians about,” Peter Clement, a deputy assistant director at the CIA and the agency’s most senior Russia analyst, said at a conference in Washington in September.

                            Other emails raised questions about whether Mrs. Clinton used her position as secretary of state to do favors for donors to her family’s foundation.

                            President Barack Obama said the U.S. will take action against Russia for its alleged involvement in the U.S. presidential election, after intelligence officials concluded that Russian President Vladimir Putin personally authorized the hacking of institutions and members of the Democratic party. Photo: AP.
                            Independent computer security experts said it was plausible that the RNC’s filtering systems stopped any potentially dangerous emails from reaching their targets. But the fact that they failed doesn’t mean they preferred one candidate over another, nor that they don’t harbor plans to leak embarrassing information about Republicans or Mr. Trump in the future, now that he’s about to assume the presidency.

                            “It would be naive [for Republicans] to think they weren’t targeted,” said Michael Buratowski, a senior vice president at Fidelis Cybersecurity, which examined the DNC breach and attributed it to the Russian hackers.

                            “It doesn’t surprise me at all that they were gone after,” Mr. Buratowski said, because the hackers in question have demonstrated over many years a voracious appetite for information. The two groups have been linked to earlier incursions at U.S. government agencies, including the State Department and the White House.

                            —Damian Paletta contributed to this article.

                            Write to Devlin Barrett at [email protected], Shane Harris at [email protected] and Julian E. Barnes at [email protected]
                            So lets try to work through this quagmire.

                            Russia tried to hack the RNC with the SAME techniques they tried to hack the DNC and they were successful with the DNC but not the RNC.

                            So assuming it was the Russians, they released only what they could because obviously they couldn't release what they couldn't hack.....and this "clearly" demonstrate a more "aggressive" attempt at hacking the DNC and a "less persistent" attempt at the RNC and it indicates a preference towards Donald Trump according to some officials??

                            WTF?.....

                            The intelligence community better release this so called evidence and why they consider it "high confidence" or Trump is perfectly justified to get in there and fire everyone of these people that considers this evidence as definite proof.
                            Last edited by YellowFever; 18 Dec 16,, 18:33.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by YellowFever View Post

                              The intelligence community better release this so called evidence and why they consider it "high confidence" or Trump is perfectly justified to get in there and fire everyone of this people that considers this evidence as definite proof.

                              When North Korea hacked the US they released the evidence didnt they?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by zara View Post
                                When North Korea hacked the US they released the evidence didnt they?
                                So you equate NK hacking Sony or whatever with charges of a foreign power directly interfering with one of our constitutional rights.

                                Tell me do you think Russia messed with your Breixt vote?

                                Would love to get your thoughts on that.

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