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Alabama Cops ATTACKED and PARALYZED Indian Grandfather by using excessive force

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  • Oracle
    replied
    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    I don't see it as racism, but over aggressive policing. Did he ever pose a threat to their safety. The guy couldn't even speak their language. In an area that i have to think does not have too much crime. So why this deal.

    Amadou Diallo would fit your charge better. Look him up. Or people getting shot by accident. By like eleven cops at the same time. What is that.

    Males between the ages of 18-35. frisked and searched. why ? most likely age group to commit crime. aka profiling. white no bar. And this is in England.

    If i were to compare american cops with others. there's too many of them in the US is my first impression. All over the place. NYC literally crawling with them. City has a a good budget, hires more cops. City is bankrupt, fewer cops.

    One thing i learnt on this board (7thsnipe i think it was). never argue with a cop. they're just doing their job. does not matter which country. Cop is a cop. Cop giving you hassle. Put up with it. If you get taken in, then you can do your fighting with legal muscle.

    Worst place to be if your a child molester, rapist or cop ? prison! Cop has to be top of the list.
    Data Mining. Makes me wonder how efficiently big data is adopted worldwide.

    Kuku, this incident was not racist.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    Originally posted by kuku View Post
    There is a police per 100,000 of population ratio, i think that makes over policing or under policing very apparent.
    Its a rough metric.

    Originally posted by kuku View Post
    If all nations with a high ratio face the same problems, i would understand.
    There is no understanding in this case. yesterday it was this grandfather, who will it be next time. Many more locals than foreigners so chances are good it will be a local. White people won't make the news. They must have deserved it

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  • kuku
    replied
    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    I don't see it as racism, but over aggressive policing. Did he ever pose a threat to their safety. The guy couldn't even speak their language. In an area that i have to think does not have too much crime. So why this deal.
    Amadou Diallo would fit your charge better. Look him up. Or people getting shot by accident. By like eleven cops at the same time. What is that.

    Males between the ages of 18-35. frisked and searched. why ? most likely age group to commit crime. aka profiling. white no bar. And this is in England.

    If i were to compare american cops with others. there's too many of them in the US is my first impression. All over the place. NYC literally crawling with them. City has a a good budget, hires more cops. City is bankrupt, fewer cops.

    One thing i learnt on this board (7thsnipe i think it was). never argue with a cop. they're just doing their job. does not matter which country. Cop is a cop. Cop giving you hassle. Put up with it. If you get taken in, then you can do your fighting with legal muscle.

    Worst place to be if your a child molester, rapist or cop ? prison! Cop has to be top of the list.
    There is a police per 100,000 of population ratio, i think that makes over policing or under policing very apparent.
    If all nations with a high ratio face the same problems, i would understand.

    As for police reforms in India, there was a study of police on TV, they came out with very great observations, like electricity bills of police stations pending all over, pending phone bills, police forcing people to purchase petrol/diesel for their patrolling bikes and cars, none of the weapons in the police station in a working condition, etc. etc.
    Last edited by kuku; 16 Feb 15,, 16:03.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    Dare i say you need 'poh-lice reform'

    Another buzzword we keep hearing in India that never happens.

    Why ? Cops are not a profit centre. They are a cost centre.

    It takes resources to 'protect & serve'.

    Yours is a case of protecting those sources of funding. mine is a never ending struggle to find more.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Feb 15,, 17:21.

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  • tuna
    replied
    Agreed, and the professional rabble rousers don't want it to change. That's why they marginalize the issue by implying it is racism, instead of a larger issue that affects the whole rainbow of colors, creeds, orientation, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • Double Edge
    replied
    Originally posted by kuku View Post
    Unarmed men running away being shot to death.
    old and frail men being slammed hard to the ground.
    People with mental ilesness being chocked to death.

    over policing my ass, this is bigotry racism.
    I don't see it as racism, but over aggressive policing. Did he ever pose a threat to their safety. The guy couldn't even speak their language. In an area that i have to think does not have too much crime. So why this deal.

    Amadou Diallo would fit your charge better. Look him up. Or people getting shot by accident. By like eleven cops at the same time. What is that.

    Males between the ages of 18-35. frisked and searched. why ? most likely age group to commit crime. aka profiling. white no bar. And this is in England.

    If i were to compare american cops with others. there's too many of them in the US is my first impression. All over the place. NYC literally crawling with them. City has a a good budget, hires more cops. City is bankrupt, fewer cops.

    One thing i learnt on this board (7thsnipe i think it was). never argue with a cop. they're just doing their job. does not matter which country. Cop is a cop. Cop giving you hassle. Put up with it. If you get taken in, then you can do your fighting with legal muscle.

    Worst place to be if your a child molester, rapist or cop ? prison! Cop has to be top of the list.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Feb 15,, 12:46.

    Leave a comment:


  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by kuku View Post
    over policing my ass, this is bigotry racism.
    They do it to white homeless as well. This is god complex. Far worst than racism.

    Leave a comment:


  • kuku
    replied
    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    That's just it, Z was making this point some time back. They do have funding issues.

    Since they have five times more cops those cops got to go out and make themselves count.

    Result ? people feel the cops are out to get them. One little infraction and you get busted. A little too over zealous.

    so its the opposite result of there never is a cop when you need one.
    Unarmed men running away being shot to death.
    old and frail men being slammed hard to the ground.
    People with mental ilesness being chocked to death.

    over policing my ass, this is bigotry racism.

    Leave a comment:


  • Double Edge
    replied
    Originally posted by kuku View Post
    USA has to improve its piss poor policing record, (to all who will say back to me what about India, India has real funding and training issues), as a nation made out of money, USA should have no such excuse, this is just ignorance, bigotry.
    That's just it, Z was making this point some time back. They do have funding issues.

    Since they have five times more cops those cops got to go out and make themselves count.

    Result ? people feel the cops are out to get them. One little infraction and you get busted. A little too over zealous.

    so its the opposite result of there never is a cop when you need one.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bigfella
    replied
    Originally posted by citanon View Post
    My last four police encounters in the us:

    1. accident in which I was rear ended at a stop light. Officers were perfectly professional.
    2 and 3. Stopped by chp late at night when they thought I was dozing off. Officers nice and helpful even though I was tired and grumpy, left aftr making sure I was properly wake (which was very helpful).
    4. Accidentally ran a red light attending a conference in sf. Motorcycle officer launched into a rant about idiot convention goers, I was sheepishly apologetic. Guy left without giving a ticket or even getting off his bike.

    I'm guessing most encounters between police officers and law abiding citizens end like this. The trouble comes when you have the rogue officet or rogue department. Then the citizen could have lots of trouble clearing his name or getting redress. That's why transpaency is essential. Body cams and cruiser cams enhance transparency and police work. No excuse not to use them.
    Can I suggest another category. Police often deal with people who are difficult. Some may be petty criminals, others may be agitated or stupid or drug affected or mentally ill. Not 'average citizens in normal circumstances'. Sometimes ordinary people may become difficult if they feel police are treating them unfairly, even if the police see it as reasonable. I'm not just talking US now, its everywhere. This is where training, culture & institutional attitudes are crucial because this is where escalation can have bad or even tragic consequences. This is where training to de-escalate and a culture that encourages that are crucial. I don't think its as simple as 'rogue' elements. They are an issue, but only one.

    If police in Britain only fired their guns 3 times in a 12 month period that speaks to a particular police culture. One of the things it means is that British police don't shoot the mentally ill at anywhere near the rate we do in Australia or you do in the US. That alone is something I wish we could find a way to replicate, as we lost mentally ill person last week to police gunfire. I wouldn't suggest that culture can be transferred wholesale to the US or that it should be, but there must be lessons, even for the 'good' departments.

    Leave a comment:


  • citanon
    replied
    My last four police encounters in the us:

    1. accident in which I was rear ended at a stop light. Officers were perfectly professional.
    2 and 3. Stopped by chp late at night when they thought I was dozing off. Officers nice and helpful even though I was tired and grumpy, left aftr making sure I was properly wake (which was very helpful).
    4. Accidentally ran a red light attending a conference in sf. Motorcycle officer launched into a rant about idiot convention goers, I was sheepishly apologetic. Guy left without giving a ticket or even getting off his bike.

    I'm guessing most encounters between police officers and law abiding citizens end like this. The trouble comes when you have the rogue officet or rogue department. Then the citizen could have lots of trouble clearing his name or getting redress. That's why transpaency is essential. Body cams and cruiser cams enhance transparency and police work. No excuse not to use them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Monash
    replied
    Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    I am intrigued by how international posters who are making judgements on the LEA in the US based on...what?

    Do you know or have you lived here?

    Or is it all what you read and see in the media?

    There are over 18,000 police agencies in the US split between federal, state and local with approxiamtely 450,000 sworn officers.

    Over half of those officers serve in small rural departments with 12 officers or less.

    There are no rigid set of standards for police officers nationwide....and I doubt we Americans would ever agree to a national police force. So the are are a myriad of convaluted issues which stand in the way of a single force.

    And unlike many companies, the US military is expressly forbidden to take part in law enforcement other than under extremely rare circumstances.

    All of the said, the vast majority of police officers in my country are concientious, hard working men and women who truly do try to protect and serve. They have to serve in incredibly stressful environments requiring split second decisions which could result in a life lost...theirs, a citizen's or a criminals. In almost all cases they make the right call.
    Albany, my comments at least were based partly on media reporting, partly in contact (formal and informal) with US LEA and partly on my own experience as an Australian based LEO. With regards to your post - I agree that such thing as a "National" Police Force would be legally and politically impractical. When you note however that "There are no rigid set of standards for police officers nationwide" you raise an important point. National or even State wide Police forces may not be practical but there is not reason why the same should apply to recruitment and training standards. Other professions have 'national standards' for training and recruitment and on paper at least, there is no be the same reason why Policing should not be the same. This may, repeat may, be one of the issues effecting Policing in the US. As you noted 18000 agencies mean potentially 18,000 different recruiting and training systems. I am fully aware this is not the case in practice but I'm sure you get the point I am trying to make.

    Finally, for what it's worth I agree with other aspects of your post and have myself in the past argued against some of the more judgmental opinions that are expressed from time to time whenever Police shooting incidents are posted on WAB. Eagle eye hindsight and armchair expertise is a pain in the ass for all professions.
    Last edited by Monash; 15 Feb 15,, 11:06.

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  • zraver
    replied
    Originally posted by Bigfella View Post

    I'm sure that most police in America are good people trying to do the right thing and I'm sure that there are a few assholes too
    40% of police spouses report being abused. if you will abuse your spouse, you will abuse a civilian... 40% of all cops are dirty at a minimum. There there is whatever percentage don't beat their spouses but engage in other criminal conduct- theft, rape, assault.... Add in the huge number of cops, the fact that we have so many laws that just about anyone can be charged at any time and to top it off, massive surveillance and that any violation of any statue can be an arrestable offense and what you get is a police state to make Stalin drool.

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  • Native
    replied
    An Alabama police officer has been arrested after video emerged of him slamming an unarmed man to the ground after repeatedly trying to question him, law enforcement officials said.
    Alabama Police Officer Arrested After Slamming Grandfather to Ground, Leaving Him Partially Paralyzed | KTLA

    Leave a comment:


  • Bigfella
    replied
    Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    I am intrigued by how international posters who are making judgements on the LEA in the US based on...what?

    Do you know or have you lived here?

    Or is it all what you read and see in the media?
    A lot of it is based on the information I come across in discussions like this. Then I go off & do a bit of burrowing myself. There is an issue in the US. There is no getting around it. The numbers are clear. I wouldn't argue that it is just down to policing, but that has to be a factor.

    Here's a comparison. According to the FBI there are about 400 'justifiable homicides' by police every year. That figure is low. Perhaps less than 50% the actual number of people killed by police (reporting is not mandatory). In fact, the WSJ reckons there are another 550 per year not counted in these stats. However, lets go with 400 per year. From 1989 to 2011 Australian police forces killed 105 people (that is not just 'justifiable' killings). That is 4.7 per year. America's population is about 14 times Australia's, so a comparable US figure would be 65. it is probably 10 times that or more.

    However, it is worse than that. Australia actually has quite high numbers of police killings compared to places like Britain, Germany and others in Europe (let alone somewhere like Japan). Germany has a similar number of police killings per year as Australia with 4 times the population. Apparently in Canada, with a population a bit over 10% of America's, its about 12 a year.

    In 2013 British police officers discharged their weapons 3 times:

    Last year, in total, British police officers actually fired their weapons three times. The number of people fatally shot was zero. In 2012 the figure was just one. Even after adjusting for the smaller size of Britain’s population, British citizens are around 100 times less likely to be shot by a police officer than Americans. Between 2010 and 2014 the police force of one small American city, Albuquerque in New Mexico, shot and killed 23 civilians; seven times more than the number of Brits killed by all of England and Wales’s 43 forces during the same period
    Armed police: Trigger happy | The Economist

    Now, I realise that the US is unique & has a set of circumstances that no one nation duplicates. So, America can't be expected to be exactly like everyone else. However, when the numbers of police killings per capita is likely 10-15 times that of a nation like Australia there are clearly issues that go beyond America's unique social circumstances. Some of that has to be to do with police training and/or tactics.

    When there are high profile killings like Ferguson that produce protests there is often a lot of attention over the justification of the shooting & the character of the victim. This tends to get turned into a means to dismiss the protests - 'the kid was bad/the shoot was justified'. From my POV what that misses is that the protests are an expression of deeper anger at policing that isn't just about killings, but is about lower level brutality & humiliations that go unreported and largely unknown outside those communities until a bigger issue brings them to light. I have several African-American friends (a higher number than the average white American ironically ;) ), they each have stories of things that have happened to themselves or friends/family that would have many white Americans I know screaming to high heaven about their 'rights' (unnecessary car stops, harassment & even arrest for no reason). Yet for these folk it was a 'normal' part of life.

    I'm sure that most police in America are good people trying to do the right thing and I'm sure that there are a few assholes too, but I stopped buying the 'bad apple' theory of police misconduct decades ago. Some things are the result of institutional problems & require institutional solutions. Unfortunately America's decentralized policing structure makes that incredibly difficult to do. You may have a good county police force, but the next county may not be as lucky.

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