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2 NYPD cops shot dead ‘execution style’ in Brooklyn

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  • #16
    Black males should then do 21 times less crime.I somehow doubt cops can get away with cold blooded murder of innocents,especially given a working environment where the slightest attack on a ''minority'' results in investigations,media attention and the whole circus associated with it.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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    • #17
      Maybe if the cops didn't carry guns, they wouldn't be so quick to use them? After all, bringing a gun to a situation only makes the situation worse.

      At least, that's what the police tell civilians who want to protect themselves...
      "Bother", said Poo, chambering another round.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by astralis View Post
        pari,



        even without invoking the race card, there's simply a problem with the simple numbers when it comes to US police turning to what should be a last resort.

        [ATTACH]38794[/ATTACH]

        moreover, as the article you posted points out, police dept reporting shows that black males are 21x more likely to be shot than white males.
        0 in Japan and Britain, that's a remarkable year.

        21 more times...That requires further qualification, the fact that black males are in poorer social cohert means on average they will be involved in more crime. I am not saying that there isn't discrimination and racial profiling on top of this reality. It'd ridiculous to believe otherwise. Humans possess an inherent nature towards discrimination and something like racial profiling comes easy too us, it will always be a problem, especially if one race is on average poorer than an another, we will constantly need to guard against it, and remain vigilant in keeping it at a minimum.
        Last edited by tantalus; 22 Dec 14,, 19:51.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by astralis View Post
          pari,



          even without invoking the race card, there's simply a problem with the simple numbers when it comes to US police turning to what should be a last resort.

          [ATTACH]38794[/ATTACH]

          moreover, as the article you posted points out, police dept reporting shows that black males are 21x more likely to be shot than white males.

          one doesn't need to be a full-on race-baiter like Sharpton to note that something is wrong here, and that this ultimately undermines minority trust in the police, which is bad for -everyone-.
          Yeah I freely admit I nearly fell of my chair when I read the 21X number. The natural takeout is that your police forces are staffed almost exclusively by current KKK/Stormfront members which given the nature of your country isn't right so I went and had a look at the study where I found these.

          The data, for instance, is terribly incomplete. Vast numbers of the country's 17,000 police departments don't file fatal police shooting reports at all, and many have filed reports for some years but not others. Florida departments haven't filed reports since 1997 and New York City last reported in 2007. Information contained in the individual reports can also be flawed. Still, lots of the reporting police departments are in larger cities, and at least 1000 police departments filed a report or reports over the 33 years
          And
          i ProPublica calculated a statistical figure called a risk ratio by dividing the rate of black homicide victims by the rate of white victims. This ratio, commonly used in epidemiology, gives an estimate for how much more at risk black teenagers were to be killed by police officers.Risk ratios can have varying levels of precision, depending on a variety of mathematical factors. In this case, because such shootings are rare from a statistical perspective, a 95 percent confidence interval indicates that black teenagers are at between 10 and 40 times greater risk of being killed by a police officer. The calculation used 2010-2012 population estimates from the U.S. Census Bureau's American Community Survey.
          Don't get me wrong, I'm not decrying the study itself but the interpretations without context, so I went and had a look at your raw crime vs ethnicity figures as per the FBI
          FBI — Table 43
          Here my math went woolly but even with the very high rate of black vs white violent crime, the police shootings of black still seemed higher than shootings of white, so then I went looking for 'peer review'.
          John Lott: Dangerous distortions on cops shooting black men - NY Daily News

          But the original 21-fold claim is based on worse than unreliable data. ProPublica acknowledges that the data on justifiable police killings are “terribly incomplete. . . . Vast numbers of the country’s 17,000 police departments don’t file fatal police shooting reports at all.”

          But they don't make it clear that literally only a couple hundred police departments (217 in 2012, just 1.2% of all the departments in the country) report these numbers.

          Even worse, the very few police departments that do report are predominately urban areas, which tend to have much higher concentrations of blacks. This skews the numbers to over-represent black deaths.

          ProPublica justifies its use of the flawed data by quoting David Klinger, a University of Missouri-St. Louis professor. However, Klinger told me that he told ProPublica that the FBI Uniform Crime Report data on justifiable police homicide is “no good,” a common view of those who work with the data. (One ProPublica author, Ryan Gabrielson, denied to me that Professor Klinger told them this.)

          If you’re going to correctly compare the rates at which police kill black and white male teenagers, you have to compare teenage crime rates. You can’t just compare crime rates among the entire black and white populations. The rate that these teenagers commit murder, not including rape and other less serious crimes, also provides a somewhat better measure of the perceived threat that they might pose to police.

          Among blacks, teenage crime is much more prevalent. Based on the most recent available FBI crime numbers, black male teenagers were nine times more likely to commit murder than were their white counterparts. That’s right, nine times, and the gap in these urban areas is undoubtedly even larger.

          After adjusting for murder rates, black male teenagers are still killed by the police 2.3 times as often as whites. This is a considerable difference — but again, over-representation of urban areas in the data set could be a big part of the explanation.
          The big play to portray your police as inherently racist dating right back to before the Henry Louis Gates fiasco is a very dangerous path. The recent Martin/Brown/Garner protests, where both the protestors and supporters are suggesting that not only are your cops endemically racist but your court systems also and the whole notion of trial by a jury of your peers should be overridden based on nothing but the perception of race has no upside.
          De Blassio is no way responsible for the deaths of the two officers, nor Holder, nor Obama. They are partly responsible for the growing antipathy toward your police and court system because they systematically call those systems into question whenever an action or result happens that supports their narrative of racism.
          Last edited by Parihaka; 22 Dec 14,, 22:05.
          In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

          Leibniz

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          • #20
            and a counter view from Slate

            Given the dangers inherent to being a police officer—and the extent to which most cops are trying to do the best they can—it’s actually understandable that cops are a little angry with official and unofficial criticism. But they should know it comes with the territory. For all the leeway they receive, the police aren’t an inviolable force; they’re part of a public trust, accountable to elected leaders and the people who choose them. And in the same way that police have a responsibility to protect and secure the law, citizens have a responsibility to hold improper conduct to account.

            Yes, this is contested terrain and both sides will fight to define the scope and limits of police power. But these arguments are a vital part of self-governance, which is why everyone should be disturbed by statements like Giuliani’s, Pataki’s, and Patrick Lynch’s. The idea that citizens can’t criticize police—that free speech excludes scrutiny of state violence—is disturbing. Since, if free speech doesn’t include the right to challenge the official use of force, then it isn’t really free speech.
            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

            Leibniz

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            • #21
              Originally posted by bonehead View Post
              — Rev. Al Sharpton

              "Gun violence continues to plague our city and we remain committed to working with both members of the community and law enforcement to address it in a nonviolent, peaceful, and productive way."




              I'd say the bastard used the usual liberal "gun violence" bull shit as he never lets an event go by without blaming guns.
              I blame cars for car accidents and alcohol for alcoholics. Most importantly, I blame cars and alcohol for drunk driving....
              "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by tuna View Post
                Maybe if the cops didn't carry guns, they wouldn't be so quick to use them? After all, bringing a gun to a situation only makes the situation worse.

                At least, that's what the police tell civilians who want to protect themselves...
                I'm all for banning guns. Let's start with the police first.
                "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by zraver View Post
                  He may have shot her, haven't seen that confirmed, I did see his posts directly before and after the shooting saying he was gonna give (then gave) a pair of pigs their wings (his words). He said he was doing this for Mike Brown and Eric Garner.
                  He did shoot her. She survived & is in hospital. This guy had a long history of petty crime & violent behaviour. he had also attempted suicide on at least one previous occasion. Diagnosed or otherwise, it sounds like this guy was mentally ill.:

                  Brinsley, 28, had at least 19 arrests in Georgia and Ohio, spent two years in prison for gun possession and had a troubled childhood so violent that his mother was afraid of him, police said. He ranted online about police and the government and expressed "self-despair and anger at himself and where his life was," Boyce said.

                  Boyce said Brinsley's mother believed he had undiagnosed mental problems and may have been on medication at some point, but detectives were still trying to determine if he had a mental illness.
                  Ismaaiyl Brinsley, New York Cop Killer, Had Long Criminal History
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                  Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                  • #24
                    pari,

                    The natural takeout is that your police forces are staffed almost exclusively by current KKK/Stormfront members which given the nature of your country isn't right so I went and had a look at the study where I found these.
                    this is really a simplification of the nature of current-day racism in the US. no, the police are not staffed with KKK/Stormfront members. nor do we really face the systemic, legally-sanctioned racism of the past. however, there is a much more subtle type of bias which does remain:

                    How subconscious racism complicates racial disparities in policing - Vox

                    The big play to portray your police as inherently racist dating right back to before the Henry Louis Gates fiasco is a very dangerous path. The recent Martin/Brown/Garner protests, where both the protestors and supporters are suggesting that not only are your cops endemically racist but your court systems also and the whole notion of trial by a jury of your peers should be overridden based on nothing but the perception of race has no upside.
                    i would ask that you differentiate whom is saying this.

                    again, sharpton is not the default liberal view here. i'd say this is more of the average liberal take:

                    Ismaaiyl Brinsley murdered two police officers in Brooklyn: Police departments claim to be targeted by anti-police movement.

                    De Blassio is no way responsible for the deaths of the two officers, nor Holder, nor Obama. They are partly responsible for the growing antipathy toward your police and court system because they systematically call those systems into question whenever an action or result happens that supports their narrative of racism.
                    reference the article above.

                    even if we were to look at this from a very limited, political/special interest perspective, i doubt it is a goal for the party of government to undermine fellow government officials...especially officials in an union...to support a narrative that would politically appeal to only a very limited sector of the voting populace.

                    especially a voting populace that they already have a lock on.
                    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by astralis View Post
                      pari,



                      this is really a simplification of the nature of current-day racism in the US. no, the police are not staffed with KKK/Stormfront members. nor do we really face the systemic, legally-sanctioned racism of the past. however, there is a much more subtle type of bias which does remain:

                      How subconscious racism complicates racial disparities in policing - Vox
                      To be honest Asty I'm not to sure what you're saying here, is it that implicit racism justifies the 21X claim? If so there's a plethora of studies which debunk it, every criminologist I've found ridicules that '21 times more likely'.

                      As for implicit racism fortunately we have better than vox to determine if an implicit bias as defined by Fridell et al actually relates to near real world results.

                      Our participants demonstrated significantly greater threat responses against black suspects than white or Hispanic suspects suggesting they held subconscious biases associating blacks with threat. This finding is consistent with the psychological liter- ature on racial stereotypes (Devine and Elliot 1995), the experimental research on implicit bias in shooting behavior (Correll et al. 2006), and much of the criminological literature on police use of deadly force in the field (Sorenson et al. 1993; Jacobs and O’Brien 1998). However, our participants showed a behavioral bias in favor of blacks because they took longer to shoot armed black suspects than armed white or Hispanic suspects. In other words, they hesitated longest before deciding to shoot black suspects. Thus, contrary to expectations, participants’ subconscious bias that blacks were more threatening resulted in behaviors that favored blacks over white or Hispanic suspects.
                      Participants in the present study displayed greater alpha suppression when facing black suspects, in both threat and null (respectively “shoot” and “don’t-shoot”) scenar- ios. This indicates that they reacted subconsciously to the racial aspect of minority status in the manner expected by theory as did the participants in previous, button- pushing studies (e.g., Ito and Urland 2003; Correll et al. 2006; Sadler et al. 2012). However, although the research participants in the present study appeared to exhibit subconscious bias against blacks, it had an inverse effect on the speed with which they pulled the trigger on the real handgun adapted for use in the simulator. Our results using a more physically, psychologically, and neurophysiologically realistic stimulus than the button-pressing research design suggests that participants’ bias against blacks when compared to Hispanics or whites delayed their decision to shoot.
                      It is critical to note that this study examined the impact of racial/ethnic bias on the subconscious responses and shooting behavior of non-police participants. As such, the results from this sample are not generalizable to sworn officers. However, there is some evidence from the field to support the proposition that an officer’s threat bias could cause him or her to tend to take more time to make decisions to shoot people whom they subconsciously perceived as more threatening because of race or ethnicity. This behavioral “counter-bias” might be rooted in people’s concerns about the social and legal consequences of shooting a member of a historically oppressed racial or ethnic group.
                      Discussion of a counter-bias favoring blacks extends at least as far back as the late 1970s, when Inn et al. (1977) reported that incident records from a major metropolitan police department showed that officers fired more shots per incident at white suspects than at black suspects. This finding led them to speculate that, “perhaps, police behave more cautiously with blacks because of departmental policy or public sentiment concerning treatment of blacks” (Inn et al. 1977: 35).
                      So yes there is implicit racism, Obama's grandma was no different than the rest of us. From this one study though, the subjects were less likely to shoot a black person than a white one.

                      i would ask that you differentiate whom is saying this.
                      The NYPD, the NYPD unions and affiliates, the former governor of New York, the former Mayor of New York, along with sundry others. EDIT TO ADD: this just in...

                      Politicians have spent the months since the tragedy in Ferguson piously wringing their hands and bemoaning the lack of trust of police by the minority community. Mayors and Congressmen and Senators and professional racists from all sides have seized on the moment to advance their often self-serving opinions of what is wrong in America as a hyperventilating media nods knowingly and faithfully reports each and every word. Enough is enough.

                      While these politicians and their retinues ignore the decaying infrastructure of our cities, the substandard educational system, the nonexistent families, the poor nutrition, the lack of employment opportunities–all of which create a toxic environment which breeds crime–they focus with laser vision on every real or perceived mistake made by the cops fighting a running battle to keep the streets safe for our poorest and most disadvantaged citizens in our country’s worst pockets.

                      Enough is enough. There’s nothing wrong with the way cops do their jobs that won’t be fixed when politicians suck it up and attack the problems that breed poverty and crime–but they’re not going to do that. The media professes shock when we speak out–well, buckle them on America–you’re going to hear a lot from our 325,000 members in the days and months ahead. Some of you may not like it, but you would do well to listen. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
                      Chuck Canterbury, president of the Fraternal Order of Police

                      Is there an implicit bias against police and the judicial system within Democrat ranks? The fact you all believe they need retraining would suggest so.
                      even if we were to look at this from a very limited, political/special interest perspective, i doubt it is a goal for the party of government to undermine fellow government officials...especially officials in an union...to support a narrative that would politically appeal to only a very limited sector of the voting populace.

                      especially a voting populace that they already have a lock on.
                      Aye well I apparently have a much better view of your fellow democrats than you. I believe most of them actually believe there is a police/judicial bias against blacks and they are genuine in their attempts to change that. After all, those most likely to profit from Obamacare were already locked into the democrat party, yet they introduced it anyway.
                      Last edited by Parihaka; 23 Dec 14,, 05:10.
                      In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                      Leibniz

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                        He did shoot her. She survived & is in hospital. This guy had a long history of petty crime & violent behaviour. he had also attempted suicide on at least one previous occasion. Diagnosed or otherwise, it sounds like this guy was mentally ill.:
                        'It’s true that the shooter in New York appears to have been mentally troubled. But that doesn’t mean that his act can or should be treated as an isolated event, having nothing to do with the national climate.'

                        'In Manhattan’s Union Square last week, a protester wielded a menacing sign. It didn’t make the front page of any newspaper. You didn’t see it on cable news. An appalled bystander sent me a photo of the marcher and his inciteful placard, but didn’t want to be identified in any way.
                        You’ll know why in a moment.
                        “Justice Please,” the top line of the poster read. “Before we see a lot of new Larry Davis[es],” the message threatened. “1986 6 cops killed,” the banner ended ominously. It was underlined in red marker for bloody emphasis.'

                        'Something about the current state of America has been causing far more disturbed people than before to act out their illness by threatening, or actually engaging in, political violence.
                        Based on what we know so far, the NYPD killings look like more like politically tinged schizophrenia. It is appropriate, however, to consider what was swirling outside Brinsley's head. To call his crime an assassination is to acknowledge that it appears to have had a political and not merely a personal context. That context wasn’t Islamic radicalism, Puerto Rican independence, or anarcho-syndicalism. It was the anti-police xenophobic populism that flourishes in the wet and angry climate of New York and Ferguson. Extremist shouters didn’t program Brinsley, in some mechanistic way, to shoot his girlfriend and the officers. But the protest marchers did make it appreciably more likely that a disturbed person like Brinsley would react, would be able to react, and would not be prevented from reacting, in the crazy way he did.'






                        Apologies Jacob Weisburg, Paul Krugman, Michelle Malkin. Just too big a target to not shoot.;)
                        In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                        Leibniz

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                        • #27
                          "It is important to note that black men commit nearly half of all murders in this country, which is astounding when you take into consideration the fact that they only make up 12-13 per cent of the population.”

                          The analysis:

                          FactCheck has already looked at the statistics on killings by law enforcement officials. Though imperfect, the official figures suggest blacks are disproportionately likely to die at the hands of police.

                          Several people have left comments pointing out that this is not necessarily surprising or unfair, since blacks are also disproportionately likely to be involved in violent crime in the US, thereby putting themselves in the firing line.

                          It is true that around 13 per cent of Americans are black, according to the latest estimates from the US Census Bureau.

                          And yes, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, black offenders committed 52 per cent of homicides recorded in the data between 1980 and 2008. Only 45 per cent of the offenders were white. Homicide is a broader category than “murder” but let’s not split hairs.

                          Blacks were disproportionately likely to commit homicide and to be the victims. In 2008 the offending rate for blacks was seven times higher than for whites and the victimisation rate was six times higher.

                          As we found yesterday, 93 per cent of black victims were killed by blacks and 84 per cent of white victims were killed by whites.

                          Alternative statistics from the FBI are more up to date but include many crimes where the killer’s race is not recorded. These numbers tell a similar story.

                          In 2013, the FBI has black criminals carrying out 38 per cent of murders, compared to 31.1 per cent for whites. The offender’s race was “unknown” in 29.1 per cent of cases.

                          What about violent crime more generally? FBI arrest rates are one way into this. Over the last three years of data – 2011 to 2013 – 38.5 per cent of people arrested for murder, manslaughter, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault were black.

                          Clearly, these figures are problematic. We’re talking about arrests not convictions, and high black arrest rates could be taken as evidence that the police are racist.

                          But academics have noted that the proportion of black suspects arrested by the police tends to match closely the proportion of offenders identified as black by victims in the National Crime Victimization Survey.

                          This doesn’t support the idea that the police are unfairly discriminating against the black population when they make arrests.

                          So why are black offenders – and young black men in particular – over-represented in America’s crime statistics?

                          Judging from online comments, there is a wide spectrum of views on this, from unapologetic racism to militant refusal to blame the problem on anything but historic white racism.

                          Some criminologists think we could be simply confusing race for poverty or inequality: black people tend to offend more because they tend to be more disadvantaged, living in poorer urban areas with less access to public services, and so on.

                          If you control for deprivation, people of different races ought to be similarly predisposed to commit crime. Or that’s the theory, at least.

                          There is a lot of research in this area, but a lot of it is contradictory.

                          This study of violent crime in deprived neighborhoods in Cleveland, Ohio, found that reductions in poverty led to reductions in the crime rate in exactly the same way in predominantly black and white areas, suggesting poverty, not race, is the biggest factor.

                          Other studies get different results.

                          All sociologists have suffered from the same basic problem: finding urban white communities that are as disadvantaged as the poorest black neighborhoods, so that you can get a fair comparison.

                          Some thinkers play down the importance of poverty in favor of the “violent subculture theory”.

                          This is the idea that some black communities, for some reason, have developed cultural values that are more tolerant of crime and violence.

                          The verdict

                          There is evidence in the official police-recorded figures that black Americans are more likely to commit certain types of crime than people of other races.

                          While it would be naïve to suggest that there is no racism in the US criminal justice system, victim reports don’t support the idea that this is because of mass discrimination.

                          Higher poverty rates among various urban black communities might explain the difference in crime rates, although the evidence is mixed.

                          There are few simple answers and links between crime and race are likely to remain the subject of bitter argument.


                          FactCheck: do black Americans commit more crime? | The FactCheck Blog | The FactCheck Blog

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                          • #28
                            Pari, you would note that the Spokane study is set up to argue with half a dozen research studies by social psychologists that reached the opposite conclusion. The Correl study, for example, finds that police officers exhibit a "robust" racial bias in their shoot/no shoot experiments, though professionals do outperform better than the general populace. I recall one of my colleagues engaged in the latter field as a lab monkey (probably employed under Correl or his research collaborators) had made statements to that effect that criminologists and social psychologists are in vehement disagreement with regard to racial bias in police shootings.

                            None of those researchers allege police officers are raging racists; instead the argument is bias has a persistent presence in people's reflexes even though they take no stock in overtly racist ideologies.
                            All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                            -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by astralis View Post
                              [ATTACH]38794[/ATTACH]
                              The countries taken as a bench mark are not correct, as Japan, Britain and Germany have fairly strict gun laws compared to the US. With the availability of guns in the US the Police have to be always on the alert, as criminals have easy access to guns. Hence more shooting incidents.

                              However, in the case of India, the incidents from death by police shooting are very high, considering that we do not have easy access to guns.

                              Cheers!...on the rocks!!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                                Pari, you would note that the Spokane study is set up to argue with half a dozen research studies by social psychologists that reached the opposite conclusion. The Correl study, for example, finds that police officers exhibit a "robust" racial bias in their shoot/no shoot experiments, though professionals do outperform better than the general populace. I recall one of my colleagues engaged in the latter field as a lab monkey (probably employed under Correl or his research collaborators) had made statements to that effect that criminologists and social psychologists are in vehement disagreement with regard to racial bias in police shootings.

                                None of those researchers allege police officers are raging racists; instead the argument is bias has a persistent presence in people's reflexes even though they take no stock in overtly racist ideologies.
                                I'm well aware of that, I just can't see how an implicit bias, whether the social psychologists or the criminologists, can in any way, shape or form reinforce or justify a claim that black teens get shot 21 times as many as white teens by Police. Any police team across the country will shoot 21 black kids for every white kid? Really? As I said earlier, your police would have to be almost exclusively KKK, which of course they are not.
                                I therefore dismiss those numbers, just as criminologists do, and ascribe it's use to the current Democrat assault on police and the legal system.
                                In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                                Leibniz

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