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Double standards by US.US firm found guilty of underpaying Indians at $1.22 an hour.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
    then why was DK arrested if you considered the act of hiring a maid to be a government action. The US governnment made it clear that it was a private action. Hence the comparision to an American company. So your analogy is wrong and far off the mark.
    I'll quote myself

    It would be double standards if someone from the American government in India or elsewhere underpays their employees in violation of the local labour laws.
    It would still be a private action.
    1. BTW in my opinion this entire DK fiasco could have been handled much more tactfully (and with a lot less drama) by all the parties involved.
    2. The US agencies did drop the ball in their handling of an IFS officer belonging to a government the US administration professes to have "the defining partnership of this century" with.
    3. The maid played the American system to her and her family's advantage. Now the fault for letting this happen does in fact lie with the Ministry of External Affairs' current system of having "dual contracts" if not DK herself.
    4. And as always our media over inflated this whole issue forcing the GoI to act "tough"
    5. With the benefit of hindsight - the MEA/DK didn't respect US law when filing the visa application, on the other hand the US State department didn't respect the position of the diplomat while going after her.
    Last edited by DarthSiddius; 27 Oct 14,, 22:46.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
      The double standard is that DK got strip-searched and thrown into jail while those executives were not and did not have any charges against them.
      Not sure but aren't different agencies involved in these two separate incidents? If so, they could have their own standard procedures to handle such cases. Not that I agree with what DK was subjected to.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by DarthSiddius View Post
        I'll quote myself


        It would still be a private action.
        I am disagreeing with you on the implied notion that what US did was not double standards. One got arrested and got strip-searched and got criminal charges slapped against her and be subjected to humiliating treatment while the other did not and only got monetary fines imposed. And both cases were on the issue of underpaying foreign workers from India.

        1. BTW in my opinion this entire DK fiasco could have been handled much more tactfully (and a lot less drama) by all the parties involved.
        2. The US agencies did drop the ball in their handling of an IFS officer belonging to a government the US administration professes to have "the defining partnership of this century" with.
        3. The maid played the American system to her and her family's advantage. Now the fault for letting this happen does in fact lie with the Ministry of External Affairs' current system of having "dual contracts" if not DK herself.
        4. And as always our media over inflated this whole issue forcing the GoI to act "tough"
        5. With the benefit of hindsight - the MEA didn't respect US law when filing the visa application, on the other hand the US State department didn't respect the position of the diplomat while going after her.
        Counterresponse:
        1. There would have been no drama if the diplomat wasn't arrested, strip-searched, and be subject to humiliating treatment. If the US had sent a letter or sent a formal protest to the Indian ambassador, there would have been no hullabaloo.
        2. They did more than that. They did purposefully.
        3. Actually, there was more than to this. There was somebody in the US embassy/consulate that actively aided the maid and that person got kicked out.
        4. No the media did not overinflate this. They properly reported this and made sure that the weak docile PM MMS did not brush it under the rug as he would have done as some form of appeasement. The media made sure that the GoI looked out for one of their own and protest strongly about it.
        5. And the US didn't respect Indian law when they operated a for profit school and liquor dispensary store in New Delhi but GoI looked the other way as part of a gentlemen's agreement. US broke that gentlemen's agreement first. What the US did in New Delhi was worse than what the diplomat did in New York. After all, US cheated millions of dollars while the diplomat didn't pay thousands.

        This whole thing would have been avoided if US just sent a letter to the Indian Ambassador along with a monetary fine and a court order to appear or forfeit the right to contest the charges just as they did with EFI. The US authorities sent letters and formal notices to the company with civil fines and there were no arrests.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
          EFI is a government company? And the government brushed the incident under the carpet? Huh, who knew.
          yeah stay confused that way... at no times did we say EFI is a government company or the government brushed the incident under the carpet. Way to go off the mark and miss the point completely as customary. The point is the different treatment meted out to the EFI executives as compared to the diplomat DK.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
            BM has a very good point. Surely only a savage and brutal people clinging to the bottom rung of civilization would pay so low a wage. Such people richly deserve any criticism that comes their way.



            Hey BM, maybe if you keep this thread active for long enough vsdoc/doppleganger/sated Buddha will invent another persona and agree with you. He always was your biggest fan.
            And you don't have any questionable admirers? yeah sure.

            I will take vsdoc/doppelganger/SB any day any time of the week over Oracle. In fact, you are quite welcome to have Oracle since Oracle would play the part of a fawning bootlicker quite admirably to your narcissistic colonial image of yourself. Please give him a visa to your country. Both countries would be the better for it.
            Attached Files
            Last edited by Blademaster; 27 Oct 14,, 23:46.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
              Who knows but that is not the point. The point I am making is that while the maid was underpaid according to US laws, DK was criminally charged. EFI executives were not. That is the key difference I am referring to.
              As i recall the charge was for DK lying on the visa application form regarding pay.

              So who hired these people and brought them over ?

              Was it was the company itself or most likely some consulting firm. They are the employers of these people. They are the ones who will get into the net. If thats the case then EFI is untouchable.

              Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
              No the Indians did complain. After all, how did the US Labor Dept found out?
              This was not mentioned in the article. Unless there have been further revelations.

              As to how the labor dept found out ? there are many ways. Disgruntled employees who lost a job for a start. This is the biggest source for tipoffs.
              Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Oct 14,, 23:20.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                I am disagreeing with you on the implied notion that what US did was not double standards. One got arrested and got strip-searched and got criminal charges slapped against her and be subjected to humiliating treatment while the other did not and only got monetary fines imposed. And both cases were on the issue of underpaying foreign workers from India.
                You would be right if the US was a monolithic block where all decisions and actions are made by and carried out by a singular overseeing authority.

                BTW all countries have double standards. It's called having an affective foreign policy.

                1. There would have been no drama if the diplomat wasn't arrested, strip-searched, and be subject to humiliating treatment. If the US had sent a letter or sent a formal protest to the Indian ambassador, there would have been no hullabaloo.
                As I said, all parties involved.

                2. They did more than that. They did purposefully.
                If they did, then why?

                3. Actually, there was more than to this. There was somebody in the US embassy/consulate that actively aided the maid and that person got kicked out.
                I wonder why this whole thing was handled by the US administration the way it was.

                4. No the media did not overinflate this. They properly reported this and made sure that the weak docile PM MMS did not brush it under the rug as he would have done as some form of appeasement. The media made sure that the GoI looked out for one of their own and protest strongly about it.
                I wouldn't call their reporting proper but their reporting did force MMS's hand.

                5. And the US didn't respect Indian law when they operated a for profit school and liquor dispensary store in New Delhi but GoI looked the other way as part of a gentlemen's agreement. US broke that gentlemen's agreement first. What the US did in New Delhi was worse than what the diplomat did in New York. After all, US cheated millions of dollars while the diplomat didn't pay thousands.
                Not sure what laws were broken but if they were this should have been raised through the proper channels.

                This whole thing would have been avoided if US just sent a letter to the Indian Ambassador along with a monetary fine and a court order to appear or forfeit the right to contest the charges just as they did with EFI. The US authorities sent letters and formal notices to the company with civil fines and there were no arrests.
                Again different agencies doing thing's their way leading to a collective blunder. But I agree, this whole DK episode could have (and should have) been better handled.
                Last edited by DarthSiddius; 27 Oct 14,, 23:20.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                  As i recall the charge was for DK lying on the visa application form regarding pay.


                  So who hired these people and brought them over ?

                  Was it was the company itself or most likely some consulting firm. They are the employers of these people. They are the ones who will get into the net. If thats the case then EFI is untouchable.
                  The visa application was signed and submitted by the maid and yet DK was the one being charged for visa fraud. She made no false statement when she didn't even sign the visa application. So according to your reasoning, DK should have been untouchable. But she wasn't. And in the EFI case, they were the ones that hired those Indian workers and if you go through the visa application requirements, it requires an employer's statement or consent to hiring those workers and attesting that no other domestic workers could be found and that those specialized workers were required and that it would be in accordance to US labor laws.

                  This was not mentioned in the article. Unless there have been further revelations.

                  As to how the labor dept found out ? there are many ways. Disgruntled employees who lost a job for a start. This is the biggest source for tipoffs.
                  I am well aware of pay disputes and labor law complaints work. In my course of work, I usually come across several labor law complaints and disputes when those issues overlapped into areas of my expertise and the key thing was that before any complaint can be made, the employee has to be the one signing off the complaint and attesting to all facts. So before any investigation can begin, a complainant or an employee has to make the alleged complaint. There was no whistleblower status in effect. Otherwise it would have taken a different course. Based on the facts of the case, it is easy to infer that it was those Indian workers who complained about the pay.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by DarthSiddius View Post
                    You would be right if the US was a monolithic block where all decisions and actions are made by and carried out by a singular overseeing authority.
                    No doesn't work that way. After all the caption reads on the complaint as the United States vs. party or United States vs. defendant, insinuating that this person who is bringing the action has the full backing and authority of the US government. That is how the department agencies work. If they slap fines or press charges, they are acting on the authority and full backing of the US government. So your argument is meritless.

                    BTW all countries have double standards. It's called having an affective foreign policy.
                    Still it doesn't stop others from pointing out the double standards. It is called having an effective foreign policy.

                    As I said, all parties involved.
                    The US gov't could have nipped in the bud if they had apologize in the first place but instead were inordinate and stubborn and refused to play ball until GoI made a huge stink about it and started pulling out moves. Only then did the US gov't react and backtrack in a fashion.
                    If they did, then why?

                    I wonder why this whole thing was handled by the US administration the way it was.
                    Because the US attorney Preet Bharara and his minions wanted to send a message to DK and thought that they could make an example out of her without suffering any consequences. SoS Kerry knew about this beforehand and signed off it. After GoI reacted and made their moves, SoS Kerry had to backtrack and told Preet Bharara to let DK go.

                    I wouldn't call their reporting proper but their reporting did force MMS's hand.
                    Yes it was proper because DK was not allowed to leave the US. If she tried, she would have been arrested. The US did not recognize her diplomatic credentials and grant her immunity. It was only after the media forced MMS hand that DK got the necessary credentials and was allowed to leave the country unmolested.

                    Not sure what laws were broken but if they were this should have been raised through the proper channels.
                    Taxation laws and labor laws and you can thank the Congress party for that oversight

                    Again different agencies doing thing's their way leading to a collective blunder. But I agree, this whole DK episode could have (and should have) been better handled.
                    No it was deliberate on the part of the State and the US Attorney's. They knew what they were doing and went for it because they thought that India would be meek and stand idly while one of their diplomats get molested. It was spinned into a blunder when the whole thing backfired on them.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Essentially, Blademaster, what you're saying is "I Have A Frothing Hatred For America (Even Though I Live And Work Here)"

                      How's that, am I in the ballpark? Why I don't get is why you simply don't come right out and say it?

                      Have a little moral honesty and just say what's actually seething underneath these "YOU'RE DOING IT TOO!!" posts.
                      Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                        The visa application was signed and submitted by the maid and yet DK was the one being charged for visa fraud. She made no false statement when she didn't even sign the visa application. So according to your reasoning, DK should have been untouchable. But she wasn't.
                        I seem to remember that she had to sign somewhere on the form as the employer who applying for the visa. As i recall she resisted arrest and they had to haul in and process her. This i put down to a lack of proper advice by the embassy.

                        We've had diplomats in similar situations before, none blew up in this way. Which made it all the more perplexing when it happened.

                        Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                        And in the EFI case, they were the ones that hired those Indian workers and if you go through the visa application requirements, it requires an employer's statement or consent to hiring those workers and attesting that no other domestic workers could be found and that those specialized workers were required and that it would be in accordance to US labor laws.
                        this is the general requirement to get the visa. Are you sure nothing more is being done ? you make it sound like everything is over and done with, i thought it was just starting.

                        No Preet Baria kingshit prosecutor making waves in this case is there.

                        This is why there are so many lawyer jokes

                        Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                        I am well aware of pay disputes and labor law complaints work. In my course of work, I usually come across several labor law complaints and disputes when those issues overlapped into areas of my expertise and the key thing was that before any complaint can be made, the employee has to be the one signing off the complaint and attesting to all facts. So before any investigation can begin, a complainant or an employee has to make the alleged complaint. There was no whistleblower status in effect. Otherwise it would have taken a different course. Based on the facts of the case, it is easy to infer that it was those Indian workers who complained about the pay.
                        So something has happened between going over and this happening. Did not get paid for the work or they were promised a raise that did not materialise. After working for so long they would get more etc.
                        Last edited by Double Edge; 28 Oct 14,, 00:15.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                          Essentially, Blademaster, what you're saying is "I Have A Frothing Hatred For America (Even Though I Live And Work Here)"

                          How's that, am I in the ballpark? Why I don't get is why you simply don't come right out and say it?


                          Have a little moral honesty and just say what's actually seething underneath these "YOU'RE DOING IT TOO!!" posts.
                          So I refuse to be a rah rah cheerleader or look the other way while my own country does something that I do not like or agree or If I see a course where an US action is wrong, I will not hesitate to call it out., I am being morally dishonest? You prefer me to be silent?

                          I do have moral honesty to point out what the double standards are and acknowledge them. It is you that do not display any moral honesty because you equate with calling a spade a spade or calling the kettle black as some form of treason or unpatriotic act and you refuse to acknowledge your own duplicity while criticizing others for duplicity such as you have strongly criticized Russia and other countries. I notice that you get very defensive when somebody points out the duplicity of your country's actions but you applaud others for pointing out the duplicity of their own country's actions. So I find your criticisms as rather petty and unbecoming of you.

                          Because I dare to puncture your narcissistic view of the US and its policies, I am deemed to be unpatriotic and unAmerican. You know what? You would fit rather well among the staff of the people that sat on the House Committee of unAmerican activities, never minding that the notion of dissidence is a very American trait and steeped into the soul and character of America and its ideals. So in overall, your status of a moderator does certainly suit your personality.

                          I bet you spent your school years pining as a hall monitor.
                          Attached Files
                          Last edited by Blademaster; 28 Oct 14,, 00:27.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                            No doesn't work that way. After all the caption reads on the complaint as the United States vs. party or United States vs. defendant, insinuating that this person who is bringing the action has the full backing and authority of the US government. That is how the department agencies work. If they slap fines or press charges, they are acting on the authority and full backing of the US government. So your argument is meritless.
                            Of course he has the backing of the US government, doesn't mean, for instance, President Obama himself knew about this.

                            Still it doesn't stop others from pointing out the double standards. It is called having an effective foreign policy.
                            Yet I don't see GoI raising this

                            The US gov't could have nipped in the bud if they had apologize in the first place but instead were inordinate and stubborn and refused to play ball until GoI made a huge stink about it and started pulling out moves. Only then did the US gov't react and backtrack in a fashion.
                            Could have, would have, should have. You know my position on this. This should have been dealt with more care and subtlety.

                            Because the US attorney Preet Bharara and his minions wanted to send a message to DK and thought that they could make an example out of her without suffering any consequences. SoS Kerry knew about this beforehand and signed off it. After GoI reacted and made their moves, SoS Kerry had to backtrack and told Preet Bharara to let DK go.
                            By your own admission it was Preet Bharara who started all this. I'm not sure about Kerry's involvement but if it's true that was a bad judgement call.

                            Yes it was proper because DK was not allowed to leave the US. If she tried, she would have been arrested. The US did not recognize her diplomatic credentials and grant her immunity. It was only after the media forced MMS hand that DK got the necessary credentials and was allowed to leave the country unmolested.
                            There was a reason DK was moved to the UN mission. She didn't have immunity before. As to US diplomats being accorded similar courtesy in India. It's a courtesy after all and not law. It's good that this discrepancy was rectified later. Balance to the force was restored.

                            Taxation laws and labor laws and you can thank the Congress party for that oversight
                            Again, not well versed with the laws applicable, will defer to you.

                            No it was deliberate on the part of the State and the US Attorney's. They knew what they were doing and went for it because they thought that India would be meek and stand idly while one of their diplomats get molested. It was spinned into a blunder when the whole thing backfired on them.
                            So they simply did it because they thought India was meek. They sure showed us!
                            Last edited by DarthSiddius; 28 Oct 14,, 00:47.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                              So I refuse to be a rah rah cheerleader or look the other way while my own country does something that I do not like or agree or If I see a course where an US action is wrong, I will not hesitate to call it out., I am being morally dishonest? You prefer me to be silent?
                              Who said I preferred you to be silent? Where did I say that? I didn't.

                              Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                              I do have moral honesty to point out what the double standards are and acknowledge them. It is you that do not display any moral honesty because you equate with calling a spade a spade or calling the kettle black as some form of treason or unpatriotic act and you refuse to acknowledge your own duplicity while criticizing others for duplicity such as you have strongly criticized Russia and other countries. I notice that you get very defensive when somebody points out the duplicity of your country's actions but you applaud others for pointing out the duplicity of their own country's actions. So I find your criticisms as rather petty and unbecoming of you.
                              I don't give two shits when someone points out the duplicity of my country's actions. Facts are facts and I stand by them even when the United States has egg on it's face. You on the other hand are absolutely enraged when somebody points out a problem, systemic or not, with India. It practically pours out of you. Not sure if you've noticed or not but your (purported) pious and noble motives are amazingly transparent.

                              Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                              Because I dare to puncture your narcissistic view of the US and its policies, I am deemed to be unpatriotic and unAmerican. You know what? You would fit rather well among the staff of the people that sat on the House Committee of unAmerican activities, never minding that the notion of dissidence is a very American trait and steeped into the soul and character of America and its ideals. So in overall, your status of a moderator does certainly suit your personality.
                              Ohhhh where to begin.
                              My narcissistic view of the US and its policies? Sorry, no such thing. My eyes are wide open to the failings my country. Most Americans are in fact. When scandals occur, we hang our dirty laundry out for all to see. We don't immediately take to Internet message boards and scream about how bad other country's are too.

                              I don't know who deemed you unpatriotic or unAmerican. It certainly wasn't me. I asked when you were planning on coming right out and saying what you clearly feel but are wrapping in noble motives, most recently, "dissidence".

                              Oh and your snide comparison of my Modship to the HUAC isn't earning you any points either. You've got something to say about my Moderating decisions or anything else to do with a Moderator's status, you can do it via PM. You don't bring it up in public. That's been a rule here long before I became a Moderator. But you know that already.

                              Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                              I bet you spent your school years pining as a hall monitor.
                              No, I was pining to be a message board moderator.
                              Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                                However the view in India was from the beginning was shaped by the media narrative of a calculated insult to the Nation.
                                This is a difficult one and needs careful handling.

                                The slightest development is amplified which then gets force multiplied with social media. Its so temporary and the next cycle hits and everything is forgotten and its 'entertain us' again. The english media is the worst offender. Regional i don't think is any where as bad.

                                if you dare say anything about it they will scream police state.

                                I saw a poll sometime back that went along the lines only 30% of westerners believe what they read or hear in the media whereas for Indians that figure is 70%.

                                The predominant media in India is TV, everybody watches it. internet and printed stuff is much less.

                                It will take time.
                                Last edited by Double Edge; 28 Oct 14,, 02:41.

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