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  • Originally posted by antimony View Post
    No, this is where you are wrong. we are at a stage where industrial and economic activity is about to take off. If we do not make the right equipment and infrastructure choices now, it may be too costly a mistake to fix later. nd it needs to be done in an incentive/ carrot and stick manner rather than in a ham handed bureaucratic way.
    Fair point, I never said lets not do it even if we have means. At the moment in our country after a decade of a mess up it seems that is rather a long way and the reforms the general Indian is looking for will not happen quicker and the corrupt party will again come back to power. If tough decisions needs to be taken it is now agreed, but we don't have the resources/ tough to do it is my stance.

    Lets take some examples instead of mere rhetoric. Many industrial units use CPP (Captive Power Plants). We can have incentives to get these powered by solar or wind than by coal. Incentives may include subsidies, tax breaks or even the ability to gt credits by feeding back to the network. We can have incentives based on total carbon footprint
    Aren't we already handing out subsidies for solar plants and pay more than market price to power sold back to the grid ? More can never hurt, but we are trying the things possible by us.

    Another one, what say we start a subsidy program for hybrids? Much better than some of the stupid kerosene or other subsidies we give. And if we cover all vehicular classes (like Autos for example) then all sections of society can benefit.
    To convert the auto's engine to run in electricity as well requires a new motor. If not a costly modification, CNG itself is not wide spread mainly due to the conversion issues even though we know it's somewhat cheaper than gasoline.

    The technology is there, it is a matter of the right policy to use it.

    About the US, forget about them, lets take care of our own house. Also, no nation particularly wants to humiliate another friendly nation. Nations and people do follow their own goals, which sometimes result in unexpected side effects and "national humiliation" as in the DK case.
    Agreed WE normally don't. What was about the involvement of the US state department and secret extradition of the maid's family to the US, all of these compound the bad image of the actions of the US.

    We have the right to respond as we want in the DK case, including re,moval of privileges of US expats and diplomats, but this continued feeling of aggrievement hurts us more than them. It is time we moved on. It is also time we stopped looking at DK as a hero.
    We did stop some privileges. I am not saying DK is a hero, and I never did. She is a shameless arrogant, corrupt idiot, who screwed our country's image. I would have been more than happy to see her go through Indian justice system. Our system may not be perfect but not broken.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by zraver View Post
      Wait someone who gets the government of India to give her things like extra housing shes not supposed to have is not a hero?

      CBI to charge Devyani Khobragade, her father in Adarsh scam - The Times of India
      I am not trying to defend DK, if you have seen my posts you would know that. All I was against was how the case was tried. I would have loved to see her in jail in India and trying to go through Indian justice system. India and US ties would have even improved, you are not letting go of a criminal who had planted a bomb in you soil but rather it was a petty issue between a maid and her employer. I wouldn't have defended her if DK wasn't an Indian government official on official duty in the US. I don't have any sympathies for her anytime.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by bfng3569 View Post
        what are you talking about now?

        you wont answer the question posed to you, and your response is an attempt to change the argument.

        so i'll ask again, where is the factual basis for your claims that it is U.S. POLICY to 'bully' other nations to be more responsible in regards to the climate and where is it U.S. policy to be less responsible?

        do you have anything to support your claims?

        and i'll give you a hint before you start again, it has nothing to do with volume or quantity so please do not even attempt to go there again.
        the fact that you guys burn more oil == more CO2 == more pollution == greater greenhouse effect == global temperature increase == global warming.

        Now you come and say to us, "hey there, you are burning too much oil in your house and I can see the smoke reaching my house. So stop burning or pay this much of fine if you fail to do so." but your own backyard is creating equally or more pollution. You enact laws and leave it to sleep ? Just because you have laws doesn't mean much unless implemented properly. Show us you have reduced a lot of the pollution coming from your house first then come back to us. If you are so towards the global warming why don't you stop buying from China which is a bigger polluter in the whole street ?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          Captain,

          The complaint was that Richards worked far more hours than was agreed upon but received no extra moneys for it.

          But be that as it may, it is well within US rights to be assholes in their own country.
          And yet you get mad at me, if we say that they are acting as one ? Also wasn't it the allegation just like DK said she was cavity searched? was there any proof that the maid was over working.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by commander View Post
            Fair point, I never said lets not do it even if we have means. At the moment in our country after a decade of a mess up it seems that is rather a long way and the reforms the general Indian is looking for will not happen quicker and the corrupt party will again come back to power. If tough decisions needs to be taken it is now agreed, but we don't have the resources/ tough to do it is my stance.
            Commander,

            Anyone can have a stance, I am requesting you to examine the basis of yours. On what basis are you saying that we do not have the resources? Are you comparing cost of coal vs. Solar CPPs? Are you adjusting for import duties and subsidies? What about the costs of investing now and trying to switch a few years later? what about the environmental and health impacts till then? Please let me know of your assumptions.

            Regarding your complaints of the US, here is what it sounds like. On a scale of 1-10 on trying to be more eco-friendly, the US is around 6-7. You are berating them for not being at 10. the problem is that we in India are perhaps at around 2. Everyone is trying, but we are not trying hard enough, even adjusted for our economy. The measures you speak of are few and far in between, whereas in the US I see those measures at many places. They have not reformed, but will get there sooner than we will.

            Originally posted by commander View Post
            Show us you have reduced a lot of the pollution coming from your house first then come back to us.
            Again, why do you care so much about what the US does. Why not concentrate on our own house?

            Originally posted by commander View Post
            If you are so towards the global warming why don't you stop buying from China which is a bigger polluter in the whole street ?
            You might want to reconsider that. If they really do that, imagine what's next. Maybe they will stop buying IT services from India, and then what happens?
            "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

            Comment


            • Originally posted by commander View Post
              And yet you get mad at me, if we say that they are acting as one ? Also wasn't it the allegation just like DK said she was cavity searched? was there any proof that the maid was over working.
              The cavity search was SOP of any arrest. Her innocence or guilt was to be proven in court.
              "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post

                But be that as it may, it is well within US rights to be assholes in their own country.
                In a tort-crazy country like the US? Compensations suits will be flying all over the place.
                "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                Comment


                • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                  In a tort-crazy country like the US? Compensations suits will be flying all over the place.
                  Not much chance of that happening in DK's case was there? They have the right to be assholes to the right people. Indian Consular officials now know they fall in that category.
                  Last edited by Firestorm; 03 Nov 14,, 19:51.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                    Commander,

                    Anyone can have a stance, I am requesting you to examine the basis of yours. On what basis are you saying that we do not have the resources? Are you comparing cost of coal vs. Solar CPPs? Are you adjusting for import duties and subsidies? What about the costs of investing now and trying to switch a few years later? what about the environmental and health impacts till then? Please let me know of your assumptions.
                    First hand experience on how funds travel within the government and before reaching the end user whatever is left of it will be meager. I am also including the cost of solar panels, the infrastructure to produce and meet the surge in demand. Cost of investing in these projects. Apart from these there must be hundreds of others but are in the background.

                    Regarding your complaints of the US, here is what it sounds like. On a scale of 1-10 on trying to be more eco-friendly, the US is around 6-7. You are berating them for not being at 10. the problem is that we in India are perhaps at around 2. Everyone is trying, but we are not trying hard enough, even adjusted for our economy. The measures you speak of are few and far in between, whereas in the US I see those measures at many places. They have not reformed, but will get there sooner than we will.
                    No but I am annoyed when they try to police around imposing penalties and having ridiculous rules that most countries don't even agree for.

                    Again, why do you care so much about what the US does. Why not concentrate on our own house?
                    I honestly don't care what they do, it's the attitude that I am annoyed about. Trying to be the big brother of the world, they might have made some good but all I can see is the negativity. Also criticizing us for stopping the WTO deal without even considering what India had to say (which had a very valid argument) but no, the US would want to fulfil it's capitalistic hunger rather than stopping for a minute to consider what will happen to almost half a billion farmers across India alone. If they want to be capitalistic let them exploit their own people I have no complaints against it. But when you want others to dance to you tune and be your pet dog that is what is ridiculous.

                    You might want to reconsider that. If they really do that, imagine what's next. Maybe they will stop buying IT services from India, and then what happens?
                    Haha, I know I would get an answer similar to it, I don't think the American's would forever outsource the jobs to us. One fine day they are going to pack up and leave to a cheaper country. So we better start looking at alternatives. We have a HUGE IT potential work orders within India if Modi's Digital India gets to be a success. Lets hope for the best.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                      The cavity search was SOP of any arrest. Her innocence or guilt was to be proven in court.
                      No AM, cavity search was not mandatory. It was part of their procedure but it wasn't mandatory.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by commander View Post
                        First hand experience on how funds travel within the government and before reaching the end user whatever is left of it will be meager. I am also including the cost of solar panels, the infrastructure to produce and meet the surge in demand. Cost of investing in these projects. Apart from these there must be hundreds of others but are in the background.
                        Govt. inefficiency is our problem, not the US. you are including the cost of solar panels, but are you adjusting for duties that double those costs? Are you considering switchover costs and costs of health due to pollution?

                        Originally posted by commander View Post
                        No but I am annoyed when they try to police around imposing penalties and having ridiculous rules that most countries don't even agree for.
                        If you really want to attack the US, attack their right wing polity, a section of which refuses to believe in global warming in the first place. Attack their ridiculous stance on women's issues, especially shaming women for birth control and abortions. Attack the fact that they try to disenfranchise poor, minority voters by misusing voter id laws and gerrymandering. But please do so from a humanitarian point of view, not as a tit for tat response.

                        Originally posted by commander View Post
                        I honestly don't care what they do, it's the attitude that I am annoyed about. Trying to be the big brother of the world, they might have made some good but all I can see is the negativity. Also criticizing us for stopping the WTO deal without even considering what India had to say (which had a very valid argument) but no, the US would want to fulfil it's capitalistic hunger rather than stopping for a minute to consider what will happen to almost half a billion farmers across India alone.
                        Some of our own economists are confused by that vote.

                        Originally posted by commander View Post
                        If they want to be capitalistic let them exploit their own people I have no complaints against it.
                        That god (who may or may not exist) for capitalism. Or say good bye to the modern world.

                        Originally posted by commander View Post
                        But when you want others to dance to you tune and be your pet dog that is what is ridiculous.
                        You sound like the CPI(M). you really need to ditch that rhetoric.
                        "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
                          Not much chance of that happening in DK's case was there? They have the right to be assholes to the right people. Indian Consular officials now know they fall in that category.
                          In which case their own officials will get the similar legal treatment back in India. Also, nothing stops DK from filing her own civil suit.
                          "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                            Govt. inefficiency is our problem, not the US. you are including the cost of solar panels, but are you adjusting for duties that double those costs? Are you considering switchover costs and costs of health due to pollution?
                            Government inefficiency is being taken care of. We need time and we are not asking for centuries to fix that. Duties can be reduced if required but can the government do everything without the nod of the parliament ? Just curious, I know at times government can pass ordinances without passing it in the parliament. We are making progress towards that and we are going to need time no matter how small it is and money.

                            If you really want to attack the US, attack their right wing polity, a section of which refuses to believe in global warming in the first place. Attack their ridiculous stance on women's issues, especially shaming women for birth control and abortions. Attack the fact that they try to disenfranchise poor, minority voters by misusing voter id laws and gerrymandering. But please do so from a humanitarian point of view, not as a tit for tat response.
                            Yeah I have seen their senators talk about how if the Wind energy is used up then we would not have anymore wind left. I am not aware of many of the issues that you have pointed out here. Will try reading some of them later thanks :)

                            Some of our own economists are confused by that vote.
                            I have posted an interesting table quite a while before that shows how the cost of the grains were being adjusted to 1980's rates AND the amount of subsidy doled out by the US government to it's limited farmers most of which own acre's of land or fall into the corporate farming category. But that was easily missed and nobody talked about it.

                            That god (who may or may not exist) for capitalism. Or say good bye to the modern world.
                            Too much of anything is poisonous. See how the health care in the US is fucked up. They allowed their countrymen to mess up with their own lives. The US pharma companies abuse the patent system to patent some old generation drugs by changing their formulas everytime the patent for that drug is about to expire. They do have good health care nothing to debate there. But you got to be able to access it right. That costs shit load of money in the US and many come to India for medical tourism. This one didn't make a fuss in the recent news, but is an important one. India has increased an essential cancer drug from 8000Rs to 1.08Lakh rupees, WTF ? Not only that there are many more. All because of the greedy US pharma companies that want to open shop in India. I am not saying they shouldn't make money because after all they spen billions of dollars in R&D and salary. But even after a patent runs out , just to keep making money they apply for patent again by adding / changing the chemical mixture. Seriously ? even after you made enough money if you still want to scrape the last dollar from your countrymen is absolutely pathetic and a government that is allowing that just amuses me. Whatever works for the US will not necessarily work for India. We have a far greater population than them. We have to adapt good practices let it be from capitalism or any other political path. After all serving people is what ideologies are supposed to be. Not the opposite of it.

                            You sound like the CPI(M). you really need to ditch that rhetoric.
                            Trust me even I am not 100% sure. I like individual things from all political views. I like capitalism but at the same time I support a bit of communism too. Not the one's that will bog down development or that doesn't move on. But you get my point I hope. I also like socialism. So not trying to be a rhetoric but I have seen how foreign policy of the countries that agree to whatever US says looks like. It's like they don't have their sovereignty. I would rather not see my country limited by anyone or any factor because we had to compromise on some of the principles.

                            Cancer drug price goes up from Rs 8,000 to Rs 1.08 lakh

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                              Regarding your complaints of the US, here is what it sounds like. On a scale of 1-10 on trying to be more eco-friendly, the US is around 6-7. You are berating them for not being at 10. the problem is that we in India are perhaps at around 2. Everyone is trying, but we are not trying hard enough, even adjusted for our economy. The measures you speak of are few and far in between, whereas in the US I see those measures at many places. They have not reformed, but will get there sooner than we will.
                              Dated but a good article: Climate change, sustainable development and India: Global and national concerns

                              Another Interesting read: It is a GOI report India's National Action Plan on Climate Change

                              Modi has been for renewable energy sources not just because they are environmentally stable but also because it's much more affordable/sustainable now.

                              Read up on Charanka Solar Park

                              From wikipedia: Link
                              25.1 MW was added in 2010 and 468.3 MW in 2011. By January 2014 the installed grid connected solar power had increased to 2,208.36 MW, and India expects to install an additional 10,000 MW by 2017, and a total of 20,000 MW by 2022.
                              Notice the sharp increase in installed solar capacity year to year.

                              Shit's being done yo!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by commander View Post
                                the fact that you guys burn more oil == more CO2 == more pollution == greater greenhouse effect == global temperature increase == global warming.

                                Now you come and say to us, "hey there, you are burning too much oil in your house and I can see the smoke reaching my house. So stop burning or pay this much of fine if you fail to do so." but your own backyard is creating equally or more pollution. You enact laws and leave it to sleep ? Just because you have laws doesn't mean much unless implemented properly. Show us you have reduced a lot of the pollution coming from your house first then come back to us. If you are so towards the global warming why don't you stop buying from China which is a bigger polluter in the whole street ?
                                and your original post and comment that I quoted was talking about POLICY, then you change the argument to VOLUME.

                                do you SEE the difference?
                                Last edited by bfng3569; 04 Nov 14,, 14:19.

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