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  • #91
    Originally posted by antimony View Post
    Fine, but since genocide is murder, is not God breaking his own commandment by ordering it?
    There is no one answer to that question. I guess you have to believe he commanded genocide, which I don't believe.


    How about slavery, rape, child abuse?
    What about them?



    But these are not just laws, are they? They are supposed to commandments, directly from god. As such, they should be all encompassing, universal and eternal. Instead we have a few pronouncements urging believers to believe in one specific god and a few very specific pronouncements against some very specific crimes. Hence my contention, this is a set of man made laws not relevant in today's society. If you want a historical basis for a law abiding society, I am sure we can take plenty from Greek or Roam texts
    .

    Your reply reflects a basic misunderstanding of the scriptures. You've heard the saying that man is created in the image of God. The idea is that a prime creator is the source of all matter in the universe and all physical laws affecting it. True or not, if you reason from that point, you come to the conclusion that your body consists of this matter and is subject to the physical laws, which are everywhere the same. Thus, the argument goes, you are directly connected or part of his/its whole body, and because of this, his will can be known by man if seeks it. Building on this idea yields attempts to develop right laws to govern and lead the individual and the society of which he is a part. And those attempts are, of course, characterized as the 'word of God'. Now, whether or not the basis of this lawmaking is true, the individuals who wrote down the law believed it was true. In drawing on this idea, they set down commandments that were presented as divine revelation. They, in effect, created a religion. In order to preserve the basic idea, they led off their commandments with the one that commands people to accept only one god ("I am the Lord, thy God...etc). And for good measure they added one prohibiting worship of idols...material things. The added 'Keeping the Sabbath' because something similar was done in Egypt from where they had recently escaped. It was a custom in Egypt at the time for people to refocus on spiritual matters after a long week of dealing with material matters. The rest of the commandments were just common sense rules for maintaining a harmonious and secure society. You can toss it all out as outdated, but you won't be rid of it. Today it is reflected in all modern law everywhere, inasmuch as all the major religions have counterparts to the commandments, with cultural variations of course.
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

    Comment


    • #92
      Moreover, you are taking the Ten Commandments slightly out of context. They are merely ten out of 613 commandments given to the Jewish people in the Torah. Why were these ten singled out? I'm sure you can find a host of different scholars who will give you a host of different reasons. But the Ten Commandments were not the only commandments given to the People of Israel. Slavery, rape, abuse and most other facets of society were governed as well.
      Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

      Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
        Moreover, you are taking the Ten Commandments slightly out of context. They are merely ten out of 613 commandments given to the Jewish people in the Torah. Why were these ten singled out? I'm sure you can find a host of different scholars who will give you a host of different reasons. But the Ten Commandments were not the only commandments given to the People of Israel. Slavery, rape, abuse and most other facets of society were governed as well.
        If you are referring to my post, I agree wholeheartedly. In fact I alluded to the existence of more strictures in an earlier post, the famous 10 just being a base.
        To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

        Comment


        • #94
          Well, actually it's in reply to Antimony's post, but it ties in to yours as well
          Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

          Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

          Comment


          • #95
            Back to the topic, why are the Ten Commandments, a code of behaviour specific to Christianity, allowed to have a statue erected to them on the Capitol, and no other?
            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

            Leibniz

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
              Moreover, you are taking the Ten Commandments slightly out of context. They are merely ten out of 613 commandments given to the Jewish people in the Torah. Why were these ten singled out? I'm sure you can find a host of different scholars who will give you a host of different reasons. But the Ten Commandments were not the only commandments given to the People of Israel. Slavery, rape, abuse and most other facets of society were governed as well.
              This may explain it

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                Back to the topic, why are the Ten Commandments, a code of behaviour specific to Christianity, allowed to have a statue erected to them on the Capitol, and no other?
                Ain't there. Can't cut and paste from snopes, but this will set ya straight. snopes.com: Religious Symbols in the U.S. National Capital
                To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                  Ain't there. Can't cut and paste from snopes, but this will set ya straight. snopes.com: Religious Symbols in the U.S. National Capital
                  Sorry Jad, I wasn't very clear, the Oklahoma State Capitol
                  Ten Commandments monument is installed at Oklahoma state Capitol | News OK
                  In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                  Leibniz

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                    Sorry Jad, I wasn't very clear, the Oklahoma State Capitol
                    Ten Commandments monument is installed at Oklahoma state Capitol | News OK
                    Gotcha. If this keeps up the okla capital grounds may not be big enough to hold all the monuments different religions and sects may want to erect. The Hindus have an application pending.

                    But that still leaves north of 250 other religions eligible to put up a monument (after culling out about 35 Christian denominations). All Religions and Denominations in the US - Under God in the Pledge - ProCon.org

                    Oklahoma would do well to simply deny any religion a piece of public real estate for a monument. The whole thing is becoming ridiculous.
                    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                      There is no one answer to that question. I guess you have to believe he commanded genocide, which I don't believe.
                      whatever I read, especially the Old Testament, leads me to believe differently

                      Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                      Your reply reflects a basic misunderstanding of the scriptures. You've heard the saying that man is created in the image of God. The idea is that a prime creator is the source of all matter in the universe and all physical laws affecting it. True or not, if you reason from that point, you come to the conclusion that your body consists of this matter and is subject to the physical laws, which are everywhere the same. Thus, the argument goes, you are directly connected or part of his/its whole body, and because of this, his will can be known by man if seeks it. Building on this idea yields attempts to develop right laws to govern and lead the individual and the society of which he is a part. And those attempts are, of course, characterized as the 'word of God'. Now, whether or not the basis of this lawmaking is true, the individuals who wrote down the law believed it was true. In drawing on this idea, they set down commandments that were presented as divine revelation. They, in effect, created a religion. In order to preserve the basic idea, they led off their commandments with the one that commands people to accept only one god ("I am the Lord, thy God...etc). And for good measure they added one prohibiting worship of idols...material things. The added 'Keeping the Sabbath' because something similar was done in Egypt from where they had recently escaped. It was a custom in Egypt at the time for people to refocus on spiritual matters after a long week of dealing with material matters. The rest of the commandments were just common sense rules for maintaining a harmonious and secure society. You can toss it all out as outdated, but you won't be rid of it. Today it is reflected in all modern law everywhere, inasmuch as all the major religions have counterparts to the commandments, with cultural variations of course.
                      [/QUOTE]

                      If my understanding is mistaken, I would submit so is the case for the majority of believers. You have a very nuanced and pragmatic view of the scriptures, which is quite refreshing. The majority of your co-believers would take them much more literally.
                      "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                      Comment


                      • I was checking around for any updates and came across this on the Fox website where Fox quoted some legislators.

                        "I think you've got to remember where you are. This is Oklahoma, the middle of the heartland," said Rep. Don Armes, R-Faxon. "I think we need to be tolerant of people who think different than us, but this is Oklahoma, and that's not going to fly here."
                        Uh, the United States of America is what I thought.

                        Is he saying, but this is Oklahoma and we don't have to be tolerant? Could be read that way.


                        Another Oklahoma legislator, Rep. Earl Sears, called the group's effort "an insult to the good people of the state."

                        "I do not see Satanism as a religion, and they have no place at the state Capitol," said Sears, R-Bartlesville.
                        Now is this one saying:

                        1) you can't be placed here because you are not a religion and...
                        2) I know what is and what isn't religion, so...
                        3) he is admitting we placed a Christian religious symbol on the capital grounds, and...
                        4) if you were a religion we would place you on the grounds?

                        Both guys need better PR training

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                          Both guys need better PR training
                          Sounds to me like pretty good PR for Oklahoma, considering the vast majority of people in Oklahoma agree with them.
                          To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                          Comment


                          • Christianity, by virtue of its influence on European culture since the 6th century, is not considered in US legal tradition as a state religion, but rather as the chief inspiration for its philosophy. Which is why I get a laugh whenever these atheists today endeavor to remove all references to God from North American life. America is still a Christian nation, but not because every single American practices Christianity (not all Americans are Christians). Rather, the Founding Fathers' Christian faith inspired their vision of American government, which was eventually expressed as the U.S. Constitution.

                            Which reminds me, how many students in US schools today are aware of the contribution that "dead white man's" culture has made to America as we know it today, namely in its tradition of individual freedom and the belief that "work sets you free" (i.e., hard work can lead to great success)?

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