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  • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
    If US had declared her persona non grata and issued a show cause notice or subpoena to appear in court, then the GoI would have not interfere and let this matter be dealt quietly.
    Reading this, couldn't be done. At least not without violating Richard's rights in the US.

    If the US declares the DCG person non-grata. She goes home but the Extradition stands. Without her testimoney one way or the other, Richards is up shits creek with no basis of declaring a violation by the DCG of her VISA and she is extradited back to India. She still may. Running away to find better work as an illegal instead of going to the police about her rights.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by zraver View Post

      Second, benefits do not count towards the hourly minimum wage. For example a US worker making min wage will only get paid $7.25 per hour directly but indirectly the employers is also contributing to FICA, workmans comp and unemployment insurance on the employee's behalf. $7.25 per hour min wage means per hour regardless of fringe benefits.
      Then how does $7.25 an hour come out to $4,500 a month? By that rate, it should be $1,160.00 Yes living accommodations can be applied toward hourly minimum wage. Otherwise benefits would not be taxable.


      That is not what the evidence suggests. The evidence suggest it was the employer who first turned to the courts- Indian courts for something happening on US soil. An employers with a history of abusing the legal system and purgery back in India.
      The contract was created in India and therefore subject to Indian jurisdiction. There have been legal precedents in America where a contract was formed in America for something happening outside of US soil and US courts found jurisdiction over such contracts.


      The Visa application says the maid was promised $4500 a month. That fact requires one of three other conditions to now exist- 1. Either the maid is getting ripped off (human trafficking) or 2. the employers committed fraud- both are felonies that consular officials can be prosecuted for. neither of them by the way depend in any way on the actions of the maid. 3. both 1 and 2 can be true at the same time.
      Or the diplomat could be mistaken in thinking that benefits apply to the $4500 threshold and therefore $4,500 was promised. By the way, According to this government website https://labor.ny.gov/workerprotectio...t/minwage.shtm
      : minimum wage in NY is $7.25 so how did it come to be $4,500 as required?
      Last edited by Blademaster; 17 Dec 13,, 23:24.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by zraver View Post
        ^^^ She was treated the same as a US citizen would have been... No loss of face from that. The only loss of face is India throwing a temper tantrum like a spoiled child. So much for India being ready for the big leagues and a spot on the security council.....
        No she wasn't treated like a regular US citizen. She was made an example of. A big difference.

        India doesn't need you to tell her that she is not ready for the big leagues nor your approval for a security council. I remember all the brouhaha over CIA contractor Davis. US was throwing tantrum left and right with US Congress threatening to cut off all aid. By your standards, US wasn't ready for the big leagues. Then US should take its seat off the security council. India is not a country to play fiddle to your whims.

        And why are you bring in the Security Council into this. People accuse me of going off on a tangent but apparently you are going off an tangent in a big way.
        Last edited by Blademaster; 17 Dec 13,, 23:16.

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        • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
          Then how does $7.25 an hour come out to $4,500 a month? By that rate, it should be $1,160.00 Yes living accommodations can be applied toward hourly minimum wage. Otherwise benefits would not be taxable.
          The mystery of why Devyani Khobragade should have paid $54,000 a year to Sangeeta Richards

          According to the allegations against her, Khobragade and her maid had agreed that Khobragade would pay 30,000 rupees per month, which at the time was equivalent to $573.07. At 40 hours per week, with approximately 4.3 weeks in a month, $573.07 equates to a rate of $3.31 per hour. However, the complaint says, Khobragade instructed her maid to say that she would be paid $9.75 per hour, and not to say anything about being paid 30,000 rupees per month. Khobragade also instructed the maid to say that she would work 40 hours per week, with duty hours being 7 a.m. to 12:30 p.m., and 6:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. Khobragade, it’s alleged, told the maid that the amount of $4,500 per month was a US prerequisite to get a visa.

          Now, as important as it is to ask who decided to process the maid’s visa in India in the first place, given Khobragade’s salary, it is also important to ask as to where did this number of $4,500 come from?

          Let’s do a quick math (with calculators): $9.75 x 40 (hours of work per week) is equal to $390. In a month with 4 weeks, Khobragade’s maid, Sangeeta Richard, would make $1560. In the five months of the year with five weeks, she would make $1950. A full time year (at 40 hours a week) is equal to 2080 hours, which means the annual salary for her would be $20,280, almost one third of what the US government wanted Khobragade to pay her maid – $54,000 annually.

          According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, a maid and housekeeper in the US earned an average median salary of $19,390 in 2011, or approximately $9.32 per hour. That year, there were 111, 600 individuals working such jobs in the country. In comparison, a restaurant cook’s median salary is $22,080; a security guard makes $23, 900; a pre-school teacher made $26, 620; a sports coach $28, 470; Bookkeeping, Accounting, & Audit Clerks made $34,740, while a bus driver made 35,720, and a marriage and family therapist’s media salary was $46,240, just a bit more than what Khobragade’s maid was supposed to be paid.

          But then Sangeeta Richards was employed as a maid and housekeeper, not as a marriage and family therapist. Her salary should be closer to $20,000.
          I think she made a big mistake while filling up the visa application. She probably wasn't concerned because she never planned to pay the actual amount mentioned there anyway.
          Last edited by Firestorm; 17 Dec 13,, 23:18.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
            Reading this, couldn't be done. At least not without violating Richard's rights in the US.

            If the US declares the DCG person non-grata. She goes home but the Extradition stands. Without her testimoney one way or the other, Richards is up shits creek with no basis of declaring a violation by the DCG of her VISA and she is extradited back to India. She still may. Running away to find better work as an illegal instead of going to the police about her rights.
            An gentleman's agreement could have been made. You made the point that somebody was pissed at her. Well that person could have done something about her without pissing off GoI.

            Also, Richards still have rights in India. She could have appealed the decision but she decided not to or other reasons unknown. But it is not fair to characterize that she had no rights whatsoever. She absconded and a warrant was served upon her and she failed or refused to show her. Indian courts gave her the right to be heard and she refused to do so. Due process was followed.
            Last edited by Blademaster; 17 Dec 13,, 23:26.

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            • This proves my point that what the maid was doing was a shakedown of the diplomat and demanded more money and tried to use the law against the diplomat. We have to explore what the diplomat was thinking when she put down $4,500. Did she mean to say that it included the benefits that the maid was getting in terms of living accommodations and expenses? If so, then it was a honest mistake. I mean honestly, how much time do people spend filling out applications and give second thought to what they put down and really think about what it means.

              In my law career, I have had people come to me with confusion over visa applications and as to what they mean. It can be confusing at times because some of the terms are ambiguous and it was intended that way for some of them.

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              • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                Then how does $7.25 an hour come out to $4,500 a month?
                It doesn't, the min wage was originally brought up to show that the maid wasn't even making min wage and thus was in violation of Us labor laws. In addition the minimum wage amount per hours worked must be paid in cash, not in kind.

                By that rate, it should be $1,160.00 Yes living accommodations can be applied toward hourly minimum wage. Otherwise benefits would not be taxable.
                NO, min wage must be paid cash before any deductions for amounts over that amount for in-kind contributions

                29 CFR 541.606

                29 CFR 541.606 - Board, lodging or other facilities. | Title 29 - Labor | Code of Federal Regulations | LII / Legal Information Institute

                The contract was created in India and therefore subject to Indian jurisdiction.
                On US soil, US laws apply. A consulate and a consular officials residence are not Indian soil. That is reserved for Embassies.

                There have been legal precedents in America where a contract was formed in America for something happening outside of US soil and US courts found jurisdiction over such contracts.
                Yup- to make sure such obeyed both domestic US and domestic foreign law by picking the most strict of the two- not the least strick.

                Or the diplomat
                Seriosuly? She is in no way a diplomat- which requires host country accreditation. Why do you keep using that word?

                You keep using that word. - YouTube


                could be mistaken in thinking that benefits apply to the $4500 threshold and therefore $4,500 was promised. By the way, According to this government website https://labor.ny.gov/workerprotectio...t/minwage.shtm
                : minimum wage in NY is $7.25 so how did it come to be $4,500 as required?
                Sure a person with a history of claiming I didn't know i was cheating the system might make an honest mistake. But this is at least strike three for her in terms of lying to the legal system for personal benefit.... Its a pattern that really stretches credibility. Yet, despite evidence of wrong doing by the employers you continue to try and blame the maid... Its almost like you are so wedded to being right that you don't actually care about the truth anymore.

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                • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                  This proves my point that what the maid was doing was a shakedown of the diplomat and demanded more money and tried to use the law against the diplomat. We have to explore what the diplomat was thinking when she put down $4,500. Did she mean to say that it included the benefits that the maid was getting in terms of living accommodations and expenses? If so, then it was a honest mistake. I mean honestly, how much time do people spend filling out applications and give second thought to what they put down and really think about what it means.
                  Well the exact figure was probably a mistake, but like I said, I don't think she ever planned on paying the listed amount anyway. The unofficial verbal agreement with the maid was always Rs. 30k a month. Now, I don't have any links to back me but what I hear is that such verbal agreements aren't uncommon between IFS officers posted abroad and their personal housekeepers etc. Since they don't have to pay rent or for food, they basically take up these offers to make some substantial (by Indian standards) savings while their employers are posted abroad and return after a few years.

                  Most of the times, this works. This particular maid however got other ideas after reaching there. She wanted to work elsewhere on her off days and wanted a regular passport (not the official one she had) that would enable her to do that.

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                  • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                    If Indian consular officers who do not have full diplomatic immunity break American laws then I expect them to be prosecuted by US courts.

                    If US consular officers who do not have full diplomatic immunity break Indian laws then I expect them to be prosecuted by Indian courts.


                    All the wailing and gnashing of teeth is a waste of oxygen and time.

                    If 2 great countries can be brought to cross purposes by petty criminals.....well then we are not great countries.
                    Amen to that!
                    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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                    • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                      Again, the maid wanted the monies owed to her, the employer refused and used home country legal threats- all the requirements of human trafficking are now met.
                      The maid got greedy and wanted to earn some real money on American wages, not the $3 she agreed her terms on, when making her way to the US. The maid ain't all that innocent.

                      Only thing which makes me furious against her employer is that she broke laws being an Indian government official.

                      I just find it a bit ironic that some Indians here are offended by the fact that US law caught up to her in the manner it did, rather than being offended that a lady a history such as Khobragade was representing their country. IMO, Misplaced priorities.

                      'National' pride should not trump government corruption.
                      Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                      -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                        The maid got greedy and wanted to earn some real money on American wages, not the $3 she agreed her terms on, when making her way to the US. The maid ain't all that innocent.
                        Can you blame the maid? A reasonably decent Indian takeout costs $10 in NYC. She probably was not told how much her $500 per month salary would go in this area.

                        I blame Wall St bankers for giving her ideas. She's just being a good capitalist.

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                        • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                          ^^^ She was treated the same as a US citizen would have been... No loss of face from that. The only loss of face is India throwing a temper tantrum like a spoiled child. So much for India being ready for the big leagues and a spot on the security council.....
                          I suppose "being in the big leagues" entails not having the decency to even pay restitution to the widow of the man killed by one of your "diplomats".


                          Kenya mother widowed by US diplomat crash 'destitute'

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                            Fine but did such actions warrant such treatment by the police. It would be one thing for the Americans to say to Indians that she is non persona grata and demand she leave the country immediately but to arrest her, parade her, and strip search her while violating every diplomatic norm?
                            Apparently you missed the fact that there is a standard procedure to an arrest. If you or I were arrested then that is exactly what would happen to us: arrest, strip searched, finger printed, photograph, booked and into holding cell. I know I can guarantee that our holding cells are waaaayyy better than Indian holding cells. I have seen holding cells in the Philippines and they are truly unspeakable and deadly to foreigners. Indian cells may be just a notch above.

                            I know this would be a great embarrassment in India and the police would reserve this for the poor only. However, this isn't India and we are under no obligation to treat foreign visitors any different than our own citizens regardless of how things are handled in their country.

                            Fine, the lesson I am taking from this is that Americans can expect no different when they come to India. I hope to hell that each law breaker get arrested, paraded, strip searched, photographed, and thrown in with the general population and be made to pay huge exorbitant amount of bail.
                            Actually I would expect poor treatment right off the bat. Saying I was American would just cause the police to wonder how big a bribe they might get from me. That is exactly how it works in the P.I. The foreigner is ALWAYS quilty when the other party is a native and a bribe is the only way out. So what you say above is what I expect to be the norm.

                            If State Department ever so make a pipsqueak about the treatment, they should be served a big cup of "STFU" tea.
                            Talk about tit for tat and taking it up several notches especially given the removal of barricades in front of the embassy.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
                              I suppose "being in the big leagues" entails not even having the decency to even pay restitution to the widow of the man killed by one of your "diplomats".


                              Kenya mother widowed by US diplomat crash 'destitute'
                              Accredited diplomats are inviolate. Sometimes this means those of us in the minor leagues get screwed. But to clarify, Joshua Wilde was not a diplomat, but a diplomatic technical specialist who by treaty (along with the family of diplomats) was afford the same diplomatic immunity as an accredited diplomat.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                                Accredited diplomats are inviolate. Sometimes this means those of us in the minor leagues get screwed. But to clarify, Joshua Wilde was not a diplomat, but a diplomatic technical specialist who by treaty (along with the family of diplomats) was afford the same diplomatic immunity as an accredited diplomat.
                                The US could have waived his immunity. Or tried him for manslaughter in the US. Or at least paid the poor Kenyan mother compensation. There was another case in which a drunk US marine killed a musician in Romania in a traffic accident. The Romanian's requested the US to lift his immunity, which you didn't. He was acquitted of manslaughter in the US even though his breathalyzer test was positive. The US govt. threatened all sorts of consequences including stopping aid during the Raymond Davis case. So don't preach about what India's behavior should be like and make japes about being in the "big leagues". The behavior of the US in cases a lot more serious than this concerning their own people has been appalling.

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