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  • Originally posted by zraver View Post
    Which is theft by government whose power extends from the point of a gun. Think about how morally bankrupt it is to make someone in their 30's who is healthy both subsidize those who are not healthy at the expense of their own families and do so in a manner that protects corporate profits. The Gen X, Y and 2k's coming up face net lifetime losses to pay for the ever expanding services provided to the boomers. Its immoral and wrong.
    Just a note.

    Z you are already doing this.

    The only hospitals that are required to treat people without health insurance are public ones. A private hospital that does not accept Medicare/Medicaid is only required to stabilize those with grave injuries to the point where they can be transported to a public hospital.

    The local public hospital had a $6 million shortfall last year due to indigent care. How is that money made up? Through taxes. Check out your state. Florida has 4 different tax streams to fund public hospitals.
    That shortfall will be made up through an increase in your property taxes, building fees and permits, phone taxes. It may be unseen, but your paying for it.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
      Just a note.

      Z you are already doing this.

      The only hospitals that are required to treat people without health insurance are public ones. A private hospital that does not accept Medicare/Medicaid is only required to stabilize those with grave injuries to the point where they can be transported to a public hospital.

      The local public hospital had a $6 million shortfall last year due to indigent care. How is that money made up? Through taxes. Check out your state. Florida has 4 different tax streams to fund public hospitals.
      That shortfall will be made up through an increase in your property taxes, building fees and permits, phone taxes. It may be unseen, but your paying for it.

      A good reminder that no matter how it's done or where it comes from, the bill has to be paid somehow, and we the people eventually get stuck with it.
      To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

      Comment


      • Originally posted by zraver View Post
        its theft.
        It's social responsibility.

        Doesn't mesh with a calvinist society like the US, i know.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
          A good reminder that no matter how it's done or where it comes from, the bill has to be paid somehow, and we the people eventually get stuck with it.
          Seems nobody answered my question so far, so let me ask again...

          If it was paid by taxes until now, from now the taxes will reduce? Because Federal budget had 20+% expenditures on healthcare last time i checked. Guess it is similar with State budgets, too.
          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

          Comment


          • doktor,

            If it was paid by taxes until now, from now the taxes will reduce? Because Federal budget had 20+% expenditures on healthcare last time i checked. Guess it is similar with State budgets, too.
            these unpaid bills aren't just covered via taxes, but also through increased private healthcare costs for the insured...part of the reason why medical care is so expensive in the States.

            so the overall idea is a reduction in overall healthcare costs, both private and public. because from the federal perspective we don't say "these taxes go directly to healthcare", if less money is expended on healthcare, the taxes can be used either to pay for something else (which can potentially be a tax cut).

            and privately, of course, if costs go down then the average individual also wins. part of the reason why the ACA site was so screwed up was because the politicals wanted people to log in before seeing any prices, so that they could make a connection between ACA and reduced healthcare costs (among other things).
            Last edited by astralis; 26 Nov 13,, 19:23.
            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

            Comment


            • Originally posted by astralis View Post
              doktor,



              these unpaid bills aren't just covered via taxes, but also through increased private healthcare costs for the insured...part of the reason why medical care is so expensive in the States.

              so the overall idea is a reduction in overall healthcare costs, both private and public. because from the federal perspective we don't say "these taxes go directly to healthcare", if less money is expended on healthcare, the taxes can be used either to pay for something else (which can potentially be a tax cut).

              and privately, of course, if costs go down then the average individual also wins. part of the reason why the ACA site was so screwed up was because the politicals wanted people to log in before seeing any prices, so that they could make a connection between ACA and reduced healthcare costs (among other things).
              that doesn't answer the question though, your response is talking about increased health care costs for the insured. yet the next paragraph you talk about reduced healthcare costa?

              color me confused.....

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                Seems nobody answered my question so far, so let me ask again...

                If it was paid by taxes until now, from now the taxes will reduce? Because Federal budget had 20+% expenditures on healthcare last time i checked. Guess it is similar with State budgets, too.

                Asty tried. Let me give it a try. Basically you're asking whether Obamacare will lead to lower taxes, since many people who got government money for medical care in the past will now have insurance under Obamacare. That's a fair question. I'll let the head of the Congressional Budget Office answer it:

                The federal government spent roughly a trillion dollars on health care in fiscal year 2013, and it gave up about another quarter of a trillion dollars in tax subsidies related to health care. That spending figure is a lot larger today than it was a decade or two ago, and it will be much larger still a decade or two from now. Indeed, growth in federal spending for health care is the key factor making the budget policies of the past unsustainable in the future.
                To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                  Asty tried. Let me give it a try. Basically you're asking whether Obamacare will lead to lower taxes, since many people who got government money for medical care in the past will now have insurance under Obamacare. That's a fair question. I'll let the head of the Congressional Budget Office answer it:
                  So you guys now get taxed twice for the same service? And that is only because the previous system made a huge hole that has to be paid off for few decades if anytime at all?
                  No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                  To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                  Comment


                  • I'd just to inject a short bit of humor into this otherwise serious discussion.....

                    Attached Files
                    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                      So you guys now get taxed twice for the same service? And that is only because the previous system made a huge hole that has to be paid off for few decades if anytime at all?
                      not exactly taxed... Premiums paid for insurance are the cost of a product. Many policies will be subsidized in part or in whole for people in low income brackets. The biggest part of gov't spending goes to Medicaid payments to states, and to groups not covered by Obamacare, such as retirees on Medicare, many veterans who get nearly free care, medical research, payroll contributions for gov't workers, SS disability...and the list goes on. Obamacare is designed not so much to relieve gov't entirely from healthcare expenditures, but to bring routine healthcare to people who heretofore could not afford it, to people who were denied insurance for preexisting conditions, and so on.
                      To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                      Comment


                      • Why Obama can’t wave away this scandal
                        By John PodhoretzNovember 23, 2013 | 9:30am
                        Modal Trigger
                        Why Obama can’t wave away this scandal

                        The media shielded the president from every criticism — until he betrayed a liberal cause
                        People are puzzled: Why would Barack Obama have lied about how wonderfully everything was going to go with ObamaCare when officials in his administration knew perfectly well that disaster was going to strike?
                        In one sense, the answer is simple: At the time, just before Oct. 1, Republicans were insisting ObamaCare be delayed or defunded. The president and his team weren’t going to give the enemy the satisfaction of agreeing — or the potent ammunition that would have come from a rueful admission the system wasn’t ready.
                        Today, a bipartisan agreement to delay ObamaCare seems like it would have been a pretty good deal. It didn’t look that way at all in the last two weeks of September.
                        But there’s a deeper reason he and his people lied: They did it because they could. They did it because nearly five years in the White House had given Obama and his team confidence they would not face the music and they could finesse the problems until they got fixed.
                        Consider the events that would have been unprecedented scandals in a Republican administration — with teams of reporters digging and scratching daily at every nook and cranny in every bureaucratic corridor — that have instead been covered dutifully but with relatively little passion and almost no follow-up. Why? Because it would have hurt Obama, that’s why.
                        First, the Obama Justice Department.
                        Attorney General Eric Holder has survived three scandals that would have felled a Republican. His department attempted to soft-pedal its responsibility for the so-called “gunwalking” policy called Fast and Furious — which led to the murders of US border agents by Mexican drug-cartel members with guns effectively provided to the killers by the Justice Department.
                        He approved the secret surveillance of Fox News Channel reporter James Rosen in a leak investigation on the outrageous grounds that Rosen was a possible “co-conspirator” in an act of espionage. And he approved similar tactics against reporters at the Associated Press in another leak investigation.
                        Holder’s still there. Obama defends him. When was the last time you heard Rosen’s name mentioned, or the AP story referenced, or Fast and Furious come up?
                        Second, the Internal Revenue Service.
                        The IRS’s own acknowledgement that it had targeted conservative groups with anti-liberal agendas has led to shamed retirements, hasty changes at the top of the agency and officials pleading the Fifth Amendment. These efforts were clearly undertaken to find means by which to aid Democratic efforts in the 2010 and 2012 election. One can only wonder at what would have been done to George W. Bush by the media had similar outrages been perpetated on leftist groups in 2003 and 2004. Obama suffered . . . a little. A very little.
                        Third, the State Department.
                        The unconscionable behavior of State Department and White House officials during and after the killing of four Americans in Benghazi at the height of the 2012 race — during which the American people were deliberately and consciously misled — has had no lasting consequences whatsoever. Obama felt free to select the chief liar, Susan Rice, as his national-security adviser without experiencing a moment’s fear about how her appointment might become a scandal.
                        Fourth, making law from the White House.
                        In 2011, the president said that owing to Republican recalcitrance in the House of Representatives, he would use his executive authority to get things done. And he has. As Tara Helfman writes in the December issue of Commentary, the magazine I edit, “Notwithstanding President Obama’s constitutional duty to enforce the law of the Untied States, where federal laws conflict with his policy preferences on gay marriage, illegal immigration and drug policy, the president has simply opted not to enforce or defend them.”
                        Moreover, to strengthen his hand with Hispanic voters in 2012, he ordered the Justice Department to follow certain provisions of a law governing illegal immigrants that has yet to be approved by the Congress. That is unprecedented.
                        So, if you want to understand the blindness and arrogance of the Obama White House in failing to appreciate the wave of rage and disappointment and disgusted wonderment that would hit them in the wake of the ObamaCare rollout, you need only consider these factors.
                        He has always had the protection of his liberal base.
                        He has always had the protection of Senate Democrats, who have not acted in any way to trouble him regarding these scandals and who have impeded aggressive investigations into them.
                        And he has always had the protection of the mainstream media.
                        As a result, Barack Obama and his administration have said what they felt they needed to say and done what they felt they needed to do for immediate political gain. They did so this time. But this time was different, because this time he was mishandling and discrediting the great liberal desideratum of our time — a national health-care system.

                        This time he hasn’t gotten away with it.

                        Yet.
                        In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                        Leibniz

                        Comment


                        • that long rant of an article can be boiled down into one sentence: "why isn't everyone as pissed off as we conservatives are? because the media always covered for them! until now!"

                          so if his theory is right we should be seeing a huge popular wave of revulsion against the ACA any time now, and no one should be signing up.

                          oh wait...

                          Enrollment surge on Healthcare.gov

                          this is what happens when you stay in your own echo chamber too long, and begin creating your own reality. this is the type of "forecasting" that felled the romney campaign.
                          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                            that long rant of an article can be boiled down into one sentence: "why isn't everyone as pissed off as we conservatives are? because the media always covered for them! until now!"

                            so if his theory is right we should be seeing a huge popular wave of revulsion against the ACA any time now, and no one should be signing up.

                            oh wait...

                            Enrollment surge on Healthcare.gov

                            this is what happens when you stay in your own echo chamber too long, and begin creating your own reality. this is the type of "forecasting" that felled the romney campaign.
                            Your source- 14,000 people a day of a nation of 317 million, and an individual market of roughly 10 million. At the rate of 14,000 a day it will only take a little over 2 years to enroll everyone in the individual market. It will take around a decade to enroll the people about to be thrown off employer plans...

                            A new Harvard poll (part of a 13 year long survey) shows millennial are disgusted with Obama and would recall him if they could.

                            The website has really enrolled as many people as you claim- about half the enrollments are so full of errors the enrollments failed on the back end so double the above listed times...

                            Polls are increasingly showing the Republicans with an edge in the 2014 senate race...

                            I think you might want to step out of your echo chamber Asty...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                              that long rant of an article can be boiled down into one sentence: "why isn't everyone as pissed off as we conservatives are? because the media always covered for them! until now!"

                              so if his theory is right we should be seeing a huge popular wave of revulsion against the ACA any time now, and no one should be signing up.

                              oh wait...

                              Enrollment surge on Healthcare.gov

                              Asty:

                              Did you read the article? The thesis is that Obama has enjoyed gentle media treatment on a number of sticky issues, but he can't escape scrutiny over the ACA debacle because this time he's on record for making blatantly false statements. You know the ones: 'like your insurance, you can keep it..."

                              The other issues got a fair amount of MSM coverage, but Obama's teflon coating somehow leaves him unscathed amidst all the fuss.
                              To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                                The other issues got a fair amount of MSM coverage, but Obama's teflon coating somehow leaves him unscathed amidst all the fuss.
                                No one wants to be called racist for criticizing him....

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