Militarization of the police in the United States

[chanjyj]

I'm all for American cops to be disarmed. They keep using the lame excuses to prevent civilians from being able to defend themselves: "it'll only be taken away from you," "more likely to hurt an innocent", etc - when they themselves fall into those same categories. I think they're projecting thier own problems on the civilians. I'm all for making them apply for a weapon when there is a valid need - and a parking ticket doesn't count.

Won't work. Criminal access to firearms is too large an issue to be feasible.

[tuna]

The American LE scene is royally screwed up. They should have a look across the atlantic to the British cops sometimes. Not that the British system is perfect by any means (I believe all officers should be authorised to carry arms for one), but the attitudes the British cops have are vastly different. Was watching a show "Coppers" recently and that I think, epitomises the British cop.

I'm all for American cops to be disarmed. They keep using the lame excuses to prevent civilians from being able to defend themselves: "it'll only be taken away from you," "more likely to hurt an innocent", etc - when they themselves fall into those same categories. I think they're projecting thier own problems on the civilians. I'm all for making them apply for a weapon when there is a valid need - and a parking ticket doesn't count.

[chanjyj]

The American LE scene is royally screwed up. They should have a look across the atlantic to the British cops sometimes. Not that the British system is perfect by any means (I believe all officers should be authorised to carry arms for one), but the attitudes the British cops have are vastly different. Was watching a show "Coppers" recently and that I think, epitomises the British cop.

[zraver]

Those cops and doctors should be brought up on sexual assault charges.

Also related, I busted a cop running a stop sign (sorry about the date, now fixed). Filed a complaint, the shift supervisor said he would be showing the clip at the next shift briefing. I was headed North, sun was setting to the west. had there been a bike coming the Bike would have been blind and cop may well have run him down. I still think cops that assume they are being watched are better cops.

cop runs stop sign - YouTube

[Parihaka]

Not really militarization but nevertheless apropos
David Eckert sues Hidalgo County Sheriff's Office in New Mexico over invasive anal probe search

The incident began January 2, 2013 after David Eckert finished shopping at the Wal-Mart in Deming. According to a federal lawsuit, Eckert didn't make a complete stop at a stop sign coming out of the parking lot and was immediately stopped by law enforcement.
Eckert's attorney, Shannon Kennedy, said in an interview with KOB that after law enforcement asked him to step out of the vehicle, he appeared to be clenching his buttocks. Law enforcement thought that was probable cause to suspect that Eckert was hiding narcotics in his anal cavity. While officers detained Eckert, they secured a search warrant from a judge that allowed for an anal cavity search.
The lawsuit claims that Deming Police tried taking Eckert to an emergency room in Deming, but a doctor there refused to perform the anal cavity search citing it was "unethical."
But physicians at the Gila Regional Medical Center in Silver City agreed to perform the procedure and a few hours later, Eckert was admitted.
What Happened
While there, Eckert was subjected to repeated and humiliating forced medical procedures. A review of Eckert's medical records, which he released to KOB, and details in the lawsuit show the following happened:
1. Eckert's abdominal area was x-rayed; no narcotics were found.
2. Doctors then performed an exam of Eckert's anus with their fingers; no narcotics were found.
3. Doctors performed a second exam of Eckert's anus with their fingers; no narcotics were found.
4. Doctors penetrated Eckert's anus to insert an enema. Eckert was forced to defecate in front of doctors and police officers. Eckert watched as doctors searched his stool. No narcotics were found.
5. Doctors penetrated Eckert's anus to insert an enema a second time. Eckert was forced to defecate in front of doctors and police officers. Eckert watched as doctors searched his stool. No narcotics were found.
6. Doctors penetrated Eckert's anus to insert an enema a third time. Eckert was forced to defecate in front of doctors and police officers. Eckert watched as doctors searched his stool. No narcotics were found.
7. Doctors then x-rayed Eckert again; no narcotics were found.
8. Doctors prepared Eckert for surgery, sedated him, and then performed a colonoscopy where a scope with a camera was inserted into Eckert's anus, rectum, colon, and large intestines. No narcotics were found.
Throughout this ordeal, Eckert protested and never gave doctors at the Gila Regional Medical Center consent to perform any of these medical procedures.

[zraver]

From ABC News:

'Police said officers responded to a disturbance at a house in Pine Bluff city on Saturday afternoon and found that suspect Monroe Isadore had pointed a gun at two people. The two victims were led out of the house. As the officers approached the bedroom where Isadore had taken cover, he shot through the door.
Isadore failed to injure any of the officers with his gunfire. Supervisors began negotiating with Isadore and a Special Weapons and Tactics team was called out.
Using a camera inserted into the room, the SWAT team was able to confirm that Isadore was armed with a handgun. The officers then slipped gas into the room before Isadore responded with gunfire.

"Shortly afterwards, a SWAT entry team inside the residence breached the door to the bedroom and threw a distraction device into the bedroom," the Pine Bluff Police Department statement read.

"Isadore then began to fire on the entry team and the entry team engaged Isadore, killing him."

The statement did not say which type of distraction device was used. Law enforcement officials are investigating the incident.'

Civilians escorted to safety. Perimeter contained - tick
Suspect contained in room - tick
Negotiations commenced - tick
Covert surveillance technology used to confirm the location, armaments and status of suspect - tick
Use of OC to disorientate suspect -tick?
SWAT Team breaching door and engaging the suspect - ????

Question - why not wait him out? The suspect was 107 years old! How long before physical exhaustion and lack of sleep begins and or water begins to take its toll?

In the absence of a more detailed an analytical report I have to ask -what, the overtime budget doesn't stretch to cordoning the room for a few more hours?

We've been debating this locally, I live in Arkansas after all. We would really like to know if the guy was senile. Was he trapped in the mental time machine of age and fighting some past fight.

In Arkansas, Pine Bluff is known as crimebluff... Majority black city with a failing economy since the paper mill/lumber collapsed and high drug, gang and crime rate. Consistently one of the most violent and dangerous small cities in America.

[Monash]

107-year-old Arkansas man has been killed during a shootout with US police and SWAT

From ABC News:

'Police said officers responded to a disturbance at a house in Pine Bluff city on Saturday afternoon and found that suspect Monroe Isadore had pointed a gun at two people. The two victims were led out of the house. As the officers approached the bedroom where Isadore had taken cover, he shot through the door.
Isadore failed to injure any of the officers with his gunfire. Supervisors began negotiating with Isadore and a Special Weapons and Tactics team was called out.
Using a camera inserted into the room, the SWAT team was able to confirm that Isadore was armed with a handgun. The officers then slipped gas into the room before Isadore responded with gunfire.

"Shortly afterwards, a SWAT entry team inside the residence breached the door to the bedroom and threw a distraction device into the bedroom," the Pine Bluff Police Department statement read.

"Isadore then began to fire on the entry team and the entry team engaged Isadore, killing him."

The statement did not say which type of distraction device was used. Law enforcement officials are investigating the incident.'

Civilians escorted to safety. Perimeter contained - tick
Suspect contained in room - tick
Negotiations commenced - tick
Covert surveillance technology used to confirm the location, armaments and status of suspect - tick
Use of OC to disorientate suspect -tick?
SWAT Team breaching door and engaging the suspect - ????

Question - why not wait him out? The suspect was 107 years old! How long before physical exhaustion, a lack of sleep, food and water begins to take its toll?

In the absence of a more detailed an analytical report I have to ask -what, the overtime budget doesn't stretch to cordoning the room for a few more hours?

[Doktor]

Two things:

1) In August 2012, the Central Bureau of Statistics determined that speeding was only responsible for 0.5% of the accidents that year. Yes, half a percent. I'm just gonna leave that particular statistic and walk away. Aside from that, sure, speeding is bad and breaking the limit probably won't help you if/when you get into an accident, I think we can all agree on that.

That's weird. Since I took Italy and Tudor as an example, there it's about 60% of accidents on highways. Cultural?

2) Quote from Freakonomics, by Stephen J. Dubner and Steven D. Levitt


They also specifically mention and discuss parking tickets:

Just pointing out that giving out fines doesn't always change behavior or mentally condition someone.....

In Finland (and some other places) they seemed to worked this out. In Finladn since 1921, it's called Day-fine. The idea is that the fine is not sentenced in amount, but in paid days. IIRC, Nokia's CEO paid some ridiculous fine for speeding ($100k+) some 10 years ago ;). And again, no SWAT team came to enforce the payment.

[bigross86]

Two things:

1) In August 2012, the Central Bureau of Statistics determined that speeding was only responsible for 0.5% of the accidents that year. Yes, half a percent. I'm just gonna leave that particular statistic and walk away. Aside from that, sure, speeding is bad and breaking the limit probably won't help you if/when you get into an accident, I think we can all agree on that.

2)

by keeping the peace the lives and property of citizens are protected, by generating revenue (imposing fines) you also modify anti-social behaviors like speeding and littering. Don't impose a fine and people will speed and park where they want result - more motor accidents and grid locked streets. Fines are imposed because they deter further offending without the need to impose short periods of imprisonment for minor misdemeanors.

Quote from Freakonomics, by Stephen J. Dubner and Steven D. Levitt

Imagine for a moment that you are the manager of a day-care center. You have a clearly stated policy that children are supposed to be picked up by 4 p.m. But very often parents are late. The result: at day’s end, you have some anxious children and at least one teacher who must wait around for the parents to arrive. What to do? A pair of economists who heard of this dilemma—it turned out to be a rather common one—offered a solution: fine the tardy parents. Why, after all, should the day-care center take care of these kids for free?

The economists decided to test their solution by conducting a study of ten day-care centers in Haifa, Israel. The study lasted twenty weeks, but the fine was not introduced immediately. For the first four weeks, the economists simply kept track of the number of parents who came late; there were, on average, eight late pickups per week per day-care center. In the fifth week, the fine was enacted. It was announced that any parent arriving more than ten minutes late would pay $3 per child for each incident. The fee would be added to the parents’ monthly bill, which was roughly $380. After the fine was enacted, the number of late pickups promptly went...up. Before long there were twenty late pickups per week, more than double the original average. The incentive had plainly backfired.....

....So what was wrong with the incentive at the Israeli day-care centers? You have probably already guessed that the $3 fine was simply too small. For that price, a parent with one child could afford to be late every day and only pay an extra $60 each month—just one-sixth of the base fee. As babysitting goes, that’s pretty cheap. What if the fine had been set at $100 instead of $3? That would have likely put an end to the late pickups, though it would have also engendered plenty of ill will. (Any incentive is inherently a trade-off; the trick is to balance the extremes.)

But there was another problem with the day-care center fine. It substituted an economic incentive (the $3 penalty) for a moral incentive (the guilt that parents were supposed to feel when they came late). For just a few dollars each day, parents could buy off their guilt. Furthermore, the small size of the fine sent a signal to the parents that late pickups weren’t such a big problem. If the day-care center suffers only $3 worth of pain for each late pickup, why bother to cut short your tennis game? Indeed, when the economists eliminated the $3 fine in the seventeenth week of their study, the number of late-arriving parents didn't change. Now they could arrive late, pay no fine, and feel no guilt.

They also specifically mention and discuss parking tickets:

We all learn to respond to incentives, negative and positive, from the outset of life. If you toddle over to the hot stove and touch it, you burn a finger. But if you bring home straight A’s from school, you get a new bike. If you are spotted picking your nose in class, you get ridiculed. But if you make the basketball team, you move up the social ladder. If you break curfew, you get grounded. But if you ace your SATs, you get to go to a good college. If you flunk out of law school, you have to go to work at your father’s insurance company. But if you perform so well that a rival company comes calling, you become a vice president and no longer have to work for your father. If you become so excited about your new vice president job that you drive home at eighty mph, you get pulled over by the police and fined $100. But if you hit your sales projections and collect a year-end bonus, you not only aren't worried about the $100 ticket but can also afford to buy that Viking range you've always wanted—and on which your toddler can now burn her own finger.

Just pointing out that giving out fines doesn't always change behavior or mentally condition someone.....

[zraver]

Yep, just pointing out to Z that he could wire up his car like an AWAC and the authorities would still be able to catch him speeding if they introduced a system like Tudor.

They have similar systems on some tollways. Never heard of it on the open road, but I'm sure eventually the nanny state will crush all liberty everywhere.

[Monash]

Unless you are adrenaline addict who loves the speed and would do just that. Those systems are usually very well marked and there is a sign 1km in front (at least in Italy, where they call it TUDOR).

Anyway, even if caught speeding my guess is there wont be a SWAT team delivering you the ticket. That was the topic, right?

Yep, just pointing out to Z that he could wire up his car like an AWAC and the authorities would still be able to catch him speeding if they introduced a system like Tudor.

[Doktor]

Unless you are adrenaline addict who loves the speed and would do just that. Those systems are usually very well marked and there is a sign 1km in front (at least in Italy, where they call it TUDOR).

Anyway, even if caught speeding my guess is there wont be a SWAT team delivering you the ticket. That was the topic, right?

[Monash]

Yup, or pack more electronics to detect radar and lasers than an EF-18 Growler. My detector not only detects, but is undetectable and via my smart phone tracks my location and gets reports from other smart detectors in my area within the past 15 minutes.

Al that stuffs illegal over here. Anyway traffic authorities are thinking of extending a system they use to monitor heavy vehicles to all traffic on motorways and highways. They place automated cameras that track and record the rego details of every vehicle that passes under them mark across a highway and then at a measured fixed point further along the road they do the same thing again. Then a computer compares the time each vehicle crosses one line with the time they cross the next one, does a simple mathematical calculation and hey presto your toast. There's no way to beat it, unless of course you decide to pull over to the side of the road and wait out the clock until your elapsed time equals the speed limit - which sort of defeats the purpose of speeding in the first place.

[Monash]

If you think an asset is related to criminal activity, then charge the person with a specific crime, and put a freeze or hold on the asset and if the prosecution wins, take the asset as part of the judgement. Don't divorce the two to unfairly disadvantage the defendant who may be innocent.

The problem, especially with organized crime is that the principle beneficiaries go to great lengths to distance themselves from the criminal activity. They keep their money and assets close but large drug shipments, extortion rackets and stolen cars etc at a distance. To take a hypothetical example say a mid level 'suspected' drug dealer owns (or controls entities that own) a 1 million dollar home with no mortgage, two luxury sports cars, a forty foot power boat, a holiday apartment in climes sunny and some 'investments' in gold bullion. All on a declared income of say 60K a year from his 'job" as a used car salesman.

You might not have enough to convict him for drug offenses but you do your financial homework and then can use civil forfeiture orders to get him into court where he has to explain "where did you get the money for that?" If his income was $600,000 no problem he could probably account for everything so you wouldn't bother but since there's no way on God's green earth that he can have accumulated all those assets in just a few years legitimately with his declared income and if you can convince a court of that then he looses the lot or at least a large chunk of it, even if he doesn't go to jail for the drug shipment you were tracking in the first place.

[troung]

Further, having been denied entry and PA makes torturing an animal a felony offense the cop was acting under color of law and thus the citizen was entitled to act to stop the felony and defend what was his.

The jury really thought otherwise.

George Hitcho Jr. sentenced to death for murder of Freemansburg police officer Robert Lasso | lehighvalleylive.com

The jurors deliberated about two and a half hours before returning with the death sentence. The jury foreman said they found three mitigating factors that explained why Hitcho fired a shotgun into the base of the 31-year-old's skull, but they did not outweigh killing a police officer in the line of duty. The same jurors on May 17 found him guilty of first-degree murder.

Jurors approve death penalty for murderer of Freemansburg cop - Morning Call

On Aug. 11, Lasso was at Hitcho's New Street home after being called for an argument between Hitcho and a neighbor. The 31-year-old officer was being attacked by Hitcho's dogs and was moving to use his stun gun against them when he was felled by a 12-gauge shotgun blast from behind.
Prosecutors argued that nothing in Hitcho's life offset his decision to shoot Lasso in the back of the head from feet away, killing him before he hit the ground.

......

I think he meant your making light of cops killing our pets. A situation that has lead to situations where pet owners have no choice but to either watch their pets die or defend their kids. I said kids because there are multiple studies showing the person-pet bond mimics that of parent-child in the brain and this invites an entirely primal and visceral emotional response that has now lead to the predictable death of a cop.

They are not "children" or "little people" whether or not some person puts that value on them. No different then a goat, chicken, or any other potentially tasty creature or the animal which gave it's life for a very comfortable pair of boots.