Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Militarization of the police in the United States

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Monash View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong but believe MRAPs were designed with some degree of "off road" capability if only so they they can deal with river fordings and dirt tracks etc. I am aware they have a high center of gravity but as the picture below indicates so do our standard rural firefighting platforms over here.
    Very limited... You are forgetting that the MRAP is armored which makes it much more top heavy than a normally high vehicle.

    Figure 2-1 illustrates MRAP mishaps between November 2007 and August 2009 by mishap category, with rollovers the category resulting in the greatest loss in vehicle damage and casualties. Of the 420 recorded mishaps, 178 (42 percent) involved some type of rollover. Seven rollover events resulted in 11 fatalities (7 drowning; 4 gunner blunt force trauma). As of August 2009, there were 215 reported rollover injuries.

    https://safety.army.mil/LinkClick.as...-j0=&tabid=351

    42% of accidents result in roll over.... In addition run ins with power lines caused another 16 mishaps....


    Good driver training is the key to preventing rollovers. They still occur of course rarely from time to time but a high center of gravity doesn't discount a vehicle from service selection for firefighting duty -in fact given the terrain they work in it's almost a requirement. These vehicles do go "bush" but they do have limited off road capability for obstacle avoidance and the rest... Cheers
    103 of the 178 roll overs were caused by a vehicle fall such as a shoulder collapsing under the weight of the vehicle. The weight is so heavy they destroy roads.

    I'll let the 800,000 LEO referred to earlier know that most of them are bad cops, poor shots
    Uhmm most of them are bad shots, especially if they are part of a large urban force. Our local sheriffs deputies might be doomed if they ever had to do a foot chase, but they grew up with guns and can shoot. Your typical urban cop, much better physical health but not so good with guns... He shoots from an idiotic Isosceles stance when its time for quals, never shoots prone, upside down, off hand, in the dark, prone with the off hand in the dark at a moving target...

    Comment


    • BBC News - Radley Balko: Rise of America's warrior cop

      Comment


      • Originally posted by zraver View Post
        Uhmm most of them are bad shots, especially if they are part of a large urban force. Our local sheriffs deputies might be doomed if they ever had to do a foot chase, but they grew up with guns and can shoot. Your typical urban cop, much better physical health but not so good with guns... He shoots from an idiotic Isosceles stance when its time for quals, never shoots prone, upside down, off hand, in the dark, prone with the off hand in the dark at a moving target...
        Interesting observation. I wonder why the urban cop would be more fit than a sheriff?
        Mmhmm.. shooting prone and upside down. Not a war zone captain, you're asking too much of em - but does bring to mind veterans who join the police force.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Zraver
          Uhmm most of them are bad shots, especially if they are part of a large urban force. Our local sheriffs deputies might be doomed if they ever had to do a foot chase, but they grew up with guns and can shoot. Your typical urban cop, much better physical health but not so good with guns... He shoots from an idiotic Isosceles stance when its time for quals, never shoots prone, upside down, off hand, in the dark, prone with the off hand in the dark at a moving target...
          Florida deputies shoot man they mistook for car thief at his own house - CNN.com

          Pensacola, Florida (CNN) -- Was he a suspect or a victim?

          A Florida sheriff says an unarmed man -- mistaken for a car thief and shot by deputies in his own driveway -- is both.

          He refused to obey commands and lunged at the deputies who fired their weapons 15 times to subdue him, they say.

          Roy Middleton, 60, was hit by two of those rounds in his legs. He is in good condition at a Pensacola hospital after a metal rod was placed inside his shattered left leg.

          Sheriff defends controversial shooting

          "The tragedy of this is the noncompliance to the directions of law enforcement officers," said Sheriff David Morgan of Escambia County, Florida. "Had that occurred we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's a tragedy all the way around. He is both a suspect and a victim."

          'Like a firing squad'

          The bizarre story started Saturday around 2:30 a.m. as Middleton was returning home.

          Searching for a cigarette inside his White Lincoln Town Car, he appears to have been mistaken for a car thief by a concerned neighbor who called 911. Escambia County Sheriff's Deputy Jeremiah Meeks and Sgt. Matthew White responded to the call.

          This is where the story takes a fork in the road.

          Middleton's family said he was not feeling well enough to discuss what happened to him.

          But earlier this week, he told the Pensacola News Journal that he first thought someone was joking when they yelled at him to, "Get your hands where I can see them."

          He said that as he was turning around to face deputies with his hands raised, they opened fire.

          "It was like a firing squad. Bullets were flying everywhere," he told the News Journal.

          Deputies feared for their lives

          But the deputies involved told a different story.

          Meeks fired 12 shots and White fired three times, authorities said. They are now on paid administrative leave. Five of the bullets hit the White Town car, which was parked under a carport in a dark area of the property.

          The deputies were in fear for their own safety, according to the sheriff.

          "He came out of the car with more of a lunging motion coming out of the car, and the deputies were standing behind him and he had what appeared to be a metallic object in his hand," Sheriff David Morgan said.

          Not buying it

          But Middleton's family doesn't believe that story. His mother, Ceola Walker, 77, told CNN that her son was holding his car keys with a small flashlight on the key chain. She does not believe he lunged at deputies.

          "I don't believe that. He said he didn't. I don't believe that," she said.

          She says her son is incredibly lucky.

          "They could have hit his upper body, but they didn't ....God just shielded him. I know he did, cause they was trying to kill him," she said.

          Andre Lauzon, who lives next door and witnessed the incident, said it lasted less than 30 seconds.

          Deafening gunfire

          He was out smoking a cigarette on his front lawn when the deputies arrived, he said. His view was obscured by darkness, and at one point he lost sight of Middleton.

          But the sound of gunfire, he said, was deafening.

          "I'm very surprised that all they did was hit him in the leg," he said.

          Timeline, lab analysis

          Lauzon says his neighbor may have had trouble getting down to the ground because he was standing between his car and the wall of the carport.

          "I don't have any doubt -- even not being able to see what was going on -- that he was complying with them," he told CNN. " Maybe not in the time frame that the officer was looking for -- but it seemed he was complying."

          The Florida Department of Law Enforcement has taken over the investigation at the request of the Sheriff's Office.

          "FDLE investigators are developing a timeline and conducting interviews and crime laboratory scientists are conducting lab analysis," Gretl Plessinger, a spokeswoman for the agency, said in a statement. "Once our investigation is complete, FDLE will provide the case to the state attorney's office. The state attorney will determine whether or not any laws were broken.

          Walker said her son takes pain medication for a bad back. The investigation will determine whether that played a role in the incident.

          "The message to the public is this was a tragedy," Morgan said. "And it was a tragedy because we had an individual, a citizen, who for whatever reason, either impairment due to alcohol or drugs, or just taking it upon himself not to be compliant to following basic direct orders."

          But his mother disputes the sheriff's theory that her son was a suspect and a victim at the same time.

          "How can you be a suspect and a victim at your own house? In your own yard, in your own car?" Walker asked.
          15 shots "to subdue" him, 2 hits. And they had to be close enough to "feel threatened" by his alleged lunging at them.

          Apparently, the justification of "feeling threatened" has moved beyond dogs and applies to people now too.

          Comment


          • Some really scared police officers you got there. This frequency of such events, event for a country the size and population of USA, is worrying.
            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
              Some really scared police officers you got there. This frequency of such events, event for a country the size and population of USA, is worrying.
              The police are the least of our worries. We have an incredible gang problem that is only getting worse. We have 10-15 million here illegally that are not much interested in being Americans. Huge drug/addiction problem that transcends all economic classes. Big money/corporations are wrestling our "we the people" government from us. Then there are the real criminals that put all the rest to shame....you would call them congressmen.

              What is most worrisome is that while "we the people" can still get in and effect the changes needed to right this country they won't. They are being manipulated into charging into the trenches of the the right or left and end up fighting each other instead of joining for a common cause. We can do so many positive things if only people would understand that they are not going to get everything they want. Secondly, we need to just do what needs to be done because no one else is going to do it for us. Unfortunately we have too few that actually get this and too many people that are holding out for everything they want and they expect everyone else to do the work for them.
              Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by bonehead View Post
                The police are the least of our worries. We have an incredible gang problem that is only getting worse. We have 10-15 million here illegally that are not much interested in being Americans. Huge drug/addiction problem that transcends all economic classes. Big money/corporations are wrestling our "we the people" government from us. Then there are the real criminals that put all the rest to shame....you would call them congressmen.

                What is most worrisome is that while "we the people" can still get in and effect the changes needed to right this country they won't. They are being manipulated into charging into the trenches of the the right or left and end up fighting each other instead of joining for a common cause. We can do so many positive things if only people would understand that they are not going to get everything they want. Secondly, we need to just do what needs to be done because no one else is going to do it for us. Unfortunately we have too few that actually get this and too many people that are holding out for everything they want and they expect everyone else to do the work for them.
                You sure you talk USA there? Sounds like you have just been over here and described my country.
                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                Comment


                • When cops in a Rialto, California were forced to wear cameras, their use of force dropped by over two-thirds. Additionally, the officers who were not made to wear the cameras used force twice as much as those who did. This strongly suggests the majority of the time police use force is unnecessary. In other words, the majority of the time these officers used force they were simply committing acts of violence which they don't feel comfortable committing if it's captured on film.

                  From The New York Times:
                  HERE'S a fraught encounter: one police officer, one civilian and anger felt by one or both. Afterward, it may be hard to sort out who did what to whom.

                  Now, some police departments are using miniaturized video cameras and their microphones to capture, in full detail, officers' interactions with civilians. The cameras are so small that they can be attached to a collar, a cap or even to the side of an officer's sunglasses. High-capacity battery packs can last for an extended shift. And all of the videos are uploaded automatically to a central server that serves as a kind of digital evidence locker.

                  William A. Farrar, the police chief in Rialto, Calif., has been investigating whether officers' use of video cameras can bring measurable benefits to relations between the police and civilians. Officers in Rialto, which has a population of about 100,000, already carry Taser weapons equipped with small video cameras that activate when the weapon is armed, and the officers have long worn digital audio recorders.

                  Rialto, CA Police Made to Wear Cameras, Use of Force Drops by Over Two-Thirds - informationliberation

                  Comment


                  • I'm very conflicted.

                    I like the idea of the video camera in general. But a cop wears two hats... there are going to be times when (even though on duty) he is going to behave as a normal guy. He'll want to bitch to his buddy about the chief. He'll need to use the bathroom, scratch himself, munch on a chili dog. Would anyone want to have every moment of their waking lives video'd?

                    If they could have some sort of automation to the process... have the camera come on only during specific events, such as a traffic stop, a warrant execution, that sort of thing, I think it'd be more palatable, and effective.

                    They have been wanting to put cameras in cockpits for years, and there is strong resistance to it, myself among them. Not that piloting and police work are similar, but both carry huge responsibilities with regards to public safety.

                    Comment


                    • Choggy, not only did the use of force drop dramatically, so did citizen complaints against cops. It was a win-win for both sides.

                      In a much sadder incident, cops killed a 95yo WWII vet with bean-bag shots to the cut because he didn't want surgery and refused medical care.

                      Comment


                      • I think we can agree that police have become militarized to excess, but behind them is a government, a system, that has also become heavy-handed. The overwhelming feeling is one of "We know what's best for you. You will be dragged kicking and screaming into 'our vision' for society."

                        If they tried that (the veteran shooting) to a Civil War vet in 1930, there'd be more outrage. People would say, and understand, "He's a free man. Only he can decide for himself what is best for him."

                        Comment


                        • chogy,

                          I think we can agree that police have become militarized to excess, but behind them is a government, a system, that has also become heavy-handed. The overwhelming feeling is one of "We know what's best for you. You will be dragged kicking and screaming into 'our vision' for society."

                          If they tried that (the veteran shooting) to a Civil War vet in 1930, there'd be more outrage. People would say, and understand, "He's a free man. Only he can decide for himself what is best for him."
                          you sure about that?

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army
                          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                          Comment


                          • Been a bit busy of late, so I havn't had a chance to comment. Will try to do so this weekend. Typing on my tablet on the bus after yet another late finish - our crooks have been busy so that means we are to.
                            If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                            Comment


                            • OK here goes. Re the "militarization" line of argument there is no central driver behind the apparent rise of military style, training uniforms/equipment and operations amongst civilian law enforcement organizations. Nor is the process necessarily driven by a top down approach, most of the drivers at least initially have been bottom up.

                              Firstly especially in the US a lot of military personnel transfer across to law enforcement upon leaving the armed services. This hardly surprising given the similar ethos/mind sets etc of both professions. So you have steady intakes of soldiers into LEOs who bring their previous training and ideas with them. This gives you personnel with the ability to both execute para military style operations when required and cross train others.

                              Secondly you have suppliers of military equipment who are constantly looking for new markets and are in the position to adapt their products for use by LEO (even if this just means painting them dark blue instead of camo. Since the Iraq war lots of products that are readily adaptable to law enforcement use have come out of military programs - especially areas like SOCOM. You have the equipment available.

                              Thirdly and especially since 9/11 there has been an upsurge (justified or not) in concern about the need for local LEO to be capable of dealing with local terrorist incidents. Politicians have reacted in part by providing funding. You have the money.

                              Lastly Police have always had to deal with siege situations and (especially in the US) heavily armed offenders. Experience has shown that if entry to a hostile tactical space is required the best chance of minimizing the risk of injury to LEOs, hostages the criminals themselves is a fast, dynamic assault using surprise and team tactics. As a result for a very specialized subset of Policing situations military tactics have been adopted because time and again in they have been shown to work and work well. To the point where no Police Chief, senior officer or local politician would want to be seen as opposing the use or retention of these capabilities by their local Police. This brings OH&S and politics into the mix, tell Police to stop using military tactics and the first time someone is killed or hurt afterwards whoever made that decision gets called on it big time. Lets face it no politician is ever likely to be that 'brave'. Once you bring in militarized tactics its very hard to backtrack.

                              TV has a lot to do with it as well, glamorizing the whole concept of "SWAT" type ops.

                              IMO you do appear to utilize tactical operations teams a lot more often than other Western Nations do but that may simply reflect the fact that you are a more heavily armed society so confrontations with armed offenders in SWAT type situations are bound to occur more often.

                              As far as the whole camera argument goes I stick by the "on as required argument". People including victims and witnesses usually don't want to be filmed taking to Police if they can avoid it (I know, I know... in the US there is no constitutional right to privacy in public...blah, blah, blah," ) but there are simply to many often traumatic situations where peoples privacy needs to be respected. You try filming a parent when you when you've just had to tell them their child has died. So cameras are a good idea, just not always. Yes hit the button, tell the POI your confronting that they are being videoed and then if this is not done any arrest or charges that may occur as a result are invalidated and the LEO concerned has to account for his actions.
                              Last edited by Monash; 10 Aug 13,, 09:46.
                              If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Monash View Post
                                OK here goes. Re the "militarization" line of argument there is no central driver behind the apparent rise of military style, training uniforms/equipment and operations amongst civilian law enforcement organizations. Nor is the process necessarily driven by a top down approach, most of the drivers at least initially have been bottom up. et al....
                                ten than other Western Nations do but that may simply reflect the fact that you are a more heavily armed society so confrontation with armed offenders are much more likely. [/quote]

                                All valid points, to which i will add the 1033 program that makes surplus military equipment available for little of no cost to public agencies. I am not saying this is a bad program, only that is exists. Our local county rescue squad got a surplus Jet ranger helicopter and two hummers plus shit tons of surplus rescue and medical gear so it has a lot of benefit. But the same program the provides surplus rescue baskets and 4x4's to rescue squads also provides armored vehicles to law enforcement groups.

                                Also while confrontations with armed suspect may be more common, for the most part, such confrontations don't involve real military grade weapons which are much easier to smuggle into Europe than North America.

                                As far as the whole camera argument goes I stick by the "on as required argument". People including victims and witnesses usually don't want to be filmed taking to Police if they can avoid it (I know, I know... in the US there is no constitutional right to privacy in public...blah, blah, blah," ) but there are simply to many often traumatic situations where peoples privacy should be restricted. You try filming parents when you when you have to go and tell them their child has just died. So cameras are a good idea just hit the button, tell the POI they are being videoed and if this is not done then any arrest or charges that may occur are invalidated and the LEO concerned has to account for his actions.
                                The evidence from Rialto is pretty convincing, use of force declined 88%, and citizen complaints against law enforcement drove off the same cliff. That is a truly astounding de-escalation. With the use of force and complaints now so infrequent community based policing can thrive. The results are so striking that I'd be tempted to label any cop in the US who refused to wear one a camera as a dirty cop.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X