Militarization of the police in the United States

[Monash]

The evidence from Rialto is pretty convincing, use of force declined 88%, and citizen complaints against law enforcement drove off the same cliff. That is a truly astounding de-escalation. With the use of force and complaints now so infrequent community based policing can thrive. The results are so striking that I'd be tempted to label any cop in the US who refused to wear one a camera as a dirty cop.

Yes the results are impressive. But they have to be interpreted correctly. The article notes that there was an 88% drop in complaints against Police and corresponding 60% drop in UOF reports. The interpretation you appear to take is that the officers used less force because they knew their actions would be recorded. In some instances this may have well been a factor but it overlooks the fact that the POI being spoken to by Police also knew they were being recorded. This means that:

A) They couldn't lodge a false complaint without get caught out (hence at least part of the 88% drop in such reports) and

B) Because they aware they were being recorded suspects were less inclined to resist arrest since they knew they couldn't lie about it afterwards in Court and claim they didn't resist.

In other words the use of force reports and complaints went down not because Police were scared of being seen doing something wrong but because the the people they were arresting were scared of being seen doing something wrong - as a result they were simply more compliant than usual. (Which is a good thing!!!)

To the extent that anyone wants the clarify the causes rather than just accept a good outcome, what needs to be done is more research into the precise reasons for the drop in stats.

[zraver]

Yes the results are impressive. But they have to be interpreted correctly. The article notes that there was an 88% drop in complaints against Police and corresponding 60% drop in UOF reports. The interpretation you appear to take is that the officers used less force because they knew their actions would be recorded. In some instances this may have well been a factor but it overlooks the fact that the POI being spoken to by Police also knew they were being recorded. This means that:

A) They couldn't lodge a false complaint without get caught out (hence at least part of the 88% drop in such reports) and

B) Because they aware they were being recorded suspects were less inclined to resist arrest since they knew they couldn't lie about it afterwards in Court and claim they didn't resist.

In other words the use of force reports and complaints went down not because Police were scared of being seen doing something wrong but because the the people they were arresting were scared of being seen doing something wrong - as a result they were simply more compliant than usual. (Which is a good thing!!!)

To the extent that anyone wants the clarify the causes rather than just accept a good outcome, what needs to be done is more research into the precise reasons for the drop in stats.

The cameras are not all that visible, especially in the heat of the moment so its effect on suspects is dubious. Regardless the use of force and complaints dropped and so its a win for both sides. Inside of the American legal tradition with our approach to privacy there is no reason for any uniformed American cop to refuse if they are a good cop.

[bonehead]

The cameras are not all that visible, especially in the heat of the moment so its effect on suspects is dubious. Regardless the use of force and complaints dropped and so its a win for both sides. Inside of the American legal tradition with our approach to privacy there is no reason for any uniformed American cop to refuse if they are a good cop.

The cameras don't have to be visible. As long as the locals know the cameras are up and running the impact is huge. Secondly, even good cops have plenty of valid reasons to refuse to wear a camera 100% of the time while on duty.

[zraver]

The cameras don't have to be visible. As long as the locals know the cameras are up and running the impact is huge. Secondly, even good cops have plenty of valid reasons to refuse to wear a camera 100% of the time while on duty.

such as? Other than potty breaks or work product protected periods in which you case you turn it off, what reasons?

[Mihais]

such as? Other than potty breaks or work product protected periods in which you case you turn it off, what reasons?

Such as the need to beat the living crap out of some punk? The type not worth more formal ways.

[zraver]

Such as the need to beat the living crap out of some punk? The type not worth more formal ways.

Assault is illegal and cops are not judges.

[Mihais]

Assault is illegal and cops are not judges.

Okay

[Monash]

such as? Other than potty breaks or work product protected periods in which you case you turn it off, what reasons?

As previously stated: delivering death notices, speaking to potential witnesses and/or informants in public places, speaking with victims of violence crime or sexual assault immediately after the crime, talking to children, talking to people in areas where their modesty might otherwise be compromised e.g public pools, beaches ..., when attending daily planning meetings, musters or briefings etc where criminal intelligence is disseminated, in court, during pre-trial conferences, at the morgue, at the station, in the car when talking to you partner about how stupid or hot person X, Y, or Z is etc etc etc.

[zraver]

As previously stated: delivering death notices, speaking to potential witnesses and/or informants in public places, speaking with victims of violence crime or sexual assault immediately after the crime, talking to children, talking to people in areas where their modesty might otherwise be compromised e.g public pools, beaches ..., when attending daily planning meetings, musters or briefings etc where criminal intelligence is disseminated, in court, during pre-trial conferences, at the morgue, at the station, in the car when talking to you partner about how stupid or hot person X, Y, or Z is etc etc etc.

Some of those I would argue need to be on camera, others are in no way protected or private, some are protected work product and some its fairly easy to turn off.

[zraver]

Police conduct illegal home invasion

DeKalb County Sheriff Opens Investigation Over Shocking Video Of Alleged Police Brutality

No warrant, no probable cause, refused entry so the police escalate the situation. They then unlawfully imprison the residents and assault them physically and verbally.

[Monash]

So what the point? As has been previously stated there are somewhere in excess of 800,000 LEO in the United States, not including volunteer and part time officers. Posting isolated examples of poor or criminal conduct by a minority of officers doesn't prove systemic misconduct by the rest of them and in fact does the large majority a disservice. Posting a list of botched surgeries does not mean the all Doctors are incompetent, isolated reports of air fatalities due to pilot error doesn't mean that most pilots in the continental United states are a public menace and poor battlefield decisions individual US soldiers in the field resulting in unnecessary fatalities doesn't mean that most members of the United States Armed Forces are incapable of doing their jobs properly.

So keep posting them if you must, most times I'll probably agree with you that the incident your reporting is unacceptable, sometimes based on the limited information available I won't. But either way it it won't go to prove that most LEO in the United states are corrupt, incompetent and/or thuggish. What it will prove is that you have some kind of fixation on the issue.

[zraver]

So what the point? As has been previously stated there are somewhere in excess of 800,000 LEO in the United States, not including volunteer and part time officers. Posting isolated examples of poor or criminal conduct by a minority of officers doesn't prove systemic misconduct by the rest of them and in fact does the large majority a disservice. Posting a list of botched surgeries does not mean the all Doctors are incompetent, isolated reports of air fatalities due to pilot error doesn't mean that most pilots in the continental United states are a public menace and poor battlefield decisions individual US soldiers in the field resulting in unnecessary fatalities doesn't mean that most members of the United States Armed Forces are incapable of doing their jobs properly.

So keep posting them if you must, most times I'll probably agree with you that the incident your reporting is unacceptable, sometimes based on the limited information available I won't. But either way it it won't go to prove that most LEO in the United states are corrupt, incompetent and/or thuggish. What it will prove is that you have some kind of fixation on the issue.

That is not isolated, that is an entire department. And no, individually it does not prove that all are corrupt, it merely proves the system is open to abuse and needs reform like cameras, stricter enforcement of Brady and cops/citizens being given lessons on what rights citizens actually have.

[Doktor]

Monash,

The way I see it Z's and Wooglin's 'fixation' is that there is no system to start with. Seems like many cops can do what they please without being properly sanctioned for their actions.

[Monash]

Monash,

The way I see it Z's and Wooglin's 'fixation' is that there is no system to start with. Seems like many cops can do what they please without being properly sanctioned for their actions.

A statement totally unsupported by the evidence. If the USA had no effective law enforcement "system" then the streets of the average American city or town would more closely resemble those of Mogadishu or Karachi rather than London or Berlin. For the most part the law and order system in the US works as well and perhaps in some ways better than many other Western Nations. Its officers reflect the society they live in that they are generally well educated, well supported by modern technology and subject to the rule of law. Crime figures in the US as in many parts of the Western World are trending down, partly due to economic and social factors but also because of better/smarter law enforcement.

My point has always has been that the faults of a minority (in any profession) cannot be used as a justification to demean the rest of that profession, any more than the faults of a few should dam any particular race, nation or religion.

All except line dancers that is, they should all be taken out and shot. :whome:

[bonehead]

Monash,

The way I see it Z's and Wooglin's 'fixation' is that there is no system to start with. Seems like many cops can do what they please without being properly sanctioned for their actions.

Cops are put out as the first line on the streets and they are supposed to use good judgment while on the job. However when they stray from policy is when they get into trouble. It is the people at the top that dictate policy and those are the ones that need to be held accountable for such policies in addition to being responsible for the people they hire to follow such policies.