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  • Being granted a visa or green card is a gift and a privilege, not a right. I recall complaining about some of the gifts I received as a child - I also recall that after complaining, the people who gave me these gifts didn't give me gifts anymore.

    It works like that, if you don't like the gift, you won't get it. People who aren't grateful to the US for the opportunity to come here, don't need to be here. If they don't like the US, they can go someplace else. The agencies entrusted with giving these visas and green card have discretion about who to give them to, and accountability if they give them to people who turn out to be problems.
    sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
    If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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    • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
      The US has benefitted immeasurably from its ability to pull in some of the most talented students, researchers & entrepreneurs. My understanding is that the process has become a good deal more difficult in recent years for a number of reasons - among them the 'Green Card' system. Personally that suits me, as some of those folk will head Down Under, but in the long term it will hurt the US.
      Actually, its been my experience that since Bush Sr. , the US has been rather unsupportive of its own scientists and engineers, and looks for the cheapest bidder for the positions it needs to fill - these people aren't treated with much respect and have little security as a reward for many years of hard work. The health care and legal fields seem to offer better lives to their professionals. Like the military, the hard science professions are underpaid and under appreciated by most Americans. Ignorance and magical thinking are common place among Americans these days, and groups that support this have powerful lobbies that end up starving the people who dedicate themselves toward advancing science and engineering. Some of this is done by religion, much of it is done by corporate greed, well entrenched industries who wish to retain their market share and boost quarterly numbers at the expense of the future. For example, the oil subsidies that were enacted to build out the oil infrastructure to support an oil powered battleship fleet nearly 100 years ago are still in place... What is different now, is that the subsidies are collected by multinational companies who take the money offshore and get away with scandalous pollution and price gouging to increase their profits. Instead of doing things that will help us in the years ahead, our system seeks to inflate the numbers from the last few months - the future be damned.
      Last edited by USSWisconsin; 03 May 13,, 16:07.
      sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
      If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
        That defines it a little better, but it still leaves a lot of room for 'interpretation' - some people might distort opposition to certain US military action abroad as somehow being reflective of 'supporting terrorists and terrorism and therefore expressing a desire to harm the US or its citizens', much as Troung has been ranting about and accusing me of while trying to refute my arguments calling US Drone strikes in Pakistan violations of international law.
        Which is why all actions are guided by courts of law. The bar is very high for LEO to take actions against people who may or may not be identified.
        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
        Mark Twain

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        • ...don't get in-state tuition costs or get any scholarships or grants.

          As do out of state students. What's teh difference? You want to go to X university you pay the cost, period. I worked in a coal mine in college to pay for the school I went to because there was no state school where I lived upon HS graduation....I was a resident of WASH, DC.
          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
          Mark Twain

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Chogy View Post
            AM, I have to agree with OoE here.

            Being a Citizen carries with it the benefits of citizenship; protection under the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, and U.S. laws. Non-citizens live in the USA purely at the discretion of the various agencies that oversee this process.

            As far as what "demonstrated contempt" is? That too is at the discretion of those same agencies, and need not be sharply defined. Nor does there necessarily need to be due process for the person in question, so long as the result of that process is limited to being deported from the USA.

            It might not be fair in all cases, but non-citizens are not "owed" anything. Why should they be?

            It kind of boggles my mind. If I were a student or guest worker in a foreign nation, I'd keep my mouth shut about my host nation. Their laws and policies are none of my business. If I don't like it, I'll leave.
            Curious about this, while non-citizens do not get the right, my understanding is they get the protection, do they not?

            For e.g. they may not get to own firearms (2A), which I view as a right, but do they enjoy the protection of the 3rd and 4th amendments?
            "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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            • sure they can own a firearm, you don't need a passport, green card is enough to buy a gun.
              "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

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              • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                ...don't get in-state tuition costs or get any scholarships or grants.

                As do out of state students. What's teh difference? You want to go to X university you pay the cost, period. I worked in a coal mine in college to pay for the school I went to because there was no state school where I lived upon HS graduation....I was a resident of WASH, DC.
                You can become a resident of the state after one year or six months depending on the residency requirement and domicile yourself but foreign students cant do that.

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                • Originally posted by USSWisconsin View Post
                  Being granted a visa or green card is a gift and a privilege, not a right. I recall complaining about some of the gifts I received as a child - I also recall that after complaining, the people who gave me these gifts didn't give me gifts anymore.

                  It works like that, if you don't like the gift, you won't get it. People who aren't grateful to the US for the opportunity to come here, don't need to be here. If they don't like the US, they can go someplace else. The agencies entrusted with giving these visas and green card have discretion about who to give them to, and accountability if they give them to people who turn out to be problems.
                  Not exactly. Supreme Court cases have ruled that there is no second class citizenry or the likes of it. All immigrants get the same treatment as US citizens before the law. In fact, if you are a green card holder, the US cannot simply kick you out. There are bunch of due process procedure that green card holders are entitled to. So I don't agree with OOE's assertion that if a border agent wants you out, he can kick you out on a whim. He must give you due process. That is inviolable. But it is certainly easy to kick out non citizens out than citizens in due process proceedings.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by omon View Post
                    sure they can own a firearm, you don't need a passport, green card is enough to buy a gun.
                    Not necessarily. In WA state it was a felony for any non citizens till recently. A few years back they removed that restriction for green card holders. MA still has rtestrictions, I think
                    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                      Not exactly. Supreme Court cases have ruled that there is no second class citizenry or the likes of it. All immigrants get the same treatment as US citizens before the law. In fact, if you are a green card holder, the US cannot simply kick you out. There are bunch of due process procedure that green card holders are entitled to. So I don't agree with OOE's assertion that if a border agent wants you out, he can kick you out on a whim. He must give you due process. That is inviolable. But it is certainly easy to kick out non citizens out than citizens in due process proceedings.
                      I believe you understand the intricacies of law better than I do, being a lawyer. Are you saying that all legal immigrants have full US citizenship privileges, including the right to bear arms? or, does this apply to green card holders but not visa holders?
                      sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                      If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                        Not exactly. Supreme Court cases have ruled that there is no second class citizenry or the likes of it. All immigrants get the same treatment as US citizens before the law. In fact, if you are a green card holder, the US cannot simply kick you out. There are bunch of due process procedure that green card holders are entitled to. So I don't agree with OOE's assertion that if a border agent wants you out, he can kick you out on a whim. He must give you due process. That is inviolable. But it is certainly easy to kick out non citizens out than citizens in due process proceedings.
                        Sure, once you're in the country. But piss off the border agent before he stamps your card.

                        Comment


                        • A few updates...

                          Cause of death for Tamerlan Tsarnaev: Blunt force, gunshots
                          May 3, 2013

                          The cause of death of accused Boston Marathon bomber Tamerlan Tsarnaev was a gunshot wound to the torso and extremities and blunt trauma to head and torso, according to his death certificate. Tsarnaev was shot by police and then run over and dragged by a motor vehicle driven by his brother, Dzhokhar, in a shootout in Watertown, Mass., on April 19. Tsarnaev was pronounced dead at 1:35 a.m. that day. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was captured later that day and has been charged in the bombings at the Boston Marathon on April 15.

                          Meanwhile, the controversy over where Tamerlan Tsarnaev's body should be buried continued Friday. Protesters gathered outside the Worcester funeral home where the body was brought on Friday. The funeral home director, Peter Stefan, said he contacted four cemeteries in three states and all have declined to bury the body. If he is unable to find someone to bury the body, he is going to turn the body back over to the federal government. Stefan said he is only going to hold the body for so long.
                          Source: NECM.com

                          Apparently, a bin-Laden type burial is not too far-fetched.
                          sigpic

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                          • I have mixed feelings on immigrants.

                            Its really poor form and shameless ungratefulness to speak or think ill about the nationality you adopt and which in turn adopts you into its fold.

                            But what is even more pathetic is speaking or thinking ill about the parent country and compatriots you have left behind for whatever reason.

                            One needs to be honest to oneself when faced with a choice of mixed loyalties between adopted country and parent country.

                            You make a choice to stay or to return based on where your primary loyalty lies.

                            Not stick to where the grass is greener, but stand on your pet soapbox and espouse all that you feel is ill about the side that catches your attention at any particular moment.

                            You are not being outspoken or unbiased or brutally honest or any such grandiose thing.

                            You are simply being a confused ungrateful person who belongs to neither side anymore.

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                            • It is simple if you are immigrant.

                              You can have nostalgia for your parent country, but your loyalty should be to your new home.

                              If you don't like it, you can leave.
                              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                                It is simple if you are immigrant.

                                You can have nostalgia for your parent country, but your loyalty should be to your new home.

                                If you don't like it, you can leave.
                                Yes, but 'loyalty' doesn't mean you can't criticize or want to change aspects of your new society. Our current PM & the man who will be our next PM were both immigrants. Immigrants seeking to change existing social structures have made an enormous positive contribution to Australia's success as a nation. People tend not to care when immigrants advocate a position they agree with & scream 'go back where you came from' when they advocate one they disagree with. Often people coming from outside can see & understand things about a place that native born don't see as clearly. They may or may not have a good point, but I want to hear it.

                                I know plenty of 'loyal' Australians who wanted to make radical changes to the place. Some native born, some not. They simply have a different view of what the nation should be than I do. I don't want a passive class of citizens shoved into a corner & told to shut up because they are new. I want them involved in discourse. Provided they don't attempt violent overthrow I'm good with them advocating for their vision, no matter how different to mine.
                                sigpic

                                Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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