New AWB coming?

[astralis]

just because it's easy to commit mass murder via other methods-- and yes, from history, we know that people have used bombs before (the favored weapon of the anarchist groups of the late 19th/early 20th century)-- does not eliminate the fact that the portability, ease of hiding, ease of resupply that is available with the modern firearm makes it the usual go-to weapon for people wanting to commit massacres, at least here in the US. most of the others are a second choice, otherwise people would be using them more than they use guns already.

to extend the argument to the ridiculous, if committing mass murder with molotov cocktails is easy, why have any restrictions whatsoever on arms that people can carry? moreover, why do our militaries continue to carry arms? for that matter, why should people be worried about the Second Amendment being eliminated if it's just as easy to cause devastation with other weapons?

like i said, the history of guns in the US has always been about acceptance of a higher overall level of violence in exchange for having the ultimate form of protection against tyranny and dictatorship.

[Officer of Engineers]

to extend the argument to the ridiculous, if committing mass murder with molotov cocktails is easy, why have any restrictions whatsoever on arms that people can carry?

Like I said, all you need is one mass example. Your anarchists had no qualm disrupting firing lines with molotav cocktails once they found out how effective they were.

moreover, why do our militaries continue to carry arms?

We do carry such weapons. It's called the grenade. And we have expanded their effectiveness into the thermobaric systtems.

[astralis]

zinja,

My buddy tells me the right to bear arms in the US came about as a result of the founding fathers trying to protect civilians from the government.

yes, that's the short version.

long version--

the original thinking behind the 2nd Amendment arose from English concerns following THEIR civil war, the Revolution of 1688, where the King attempted to totally disarm the populace, which had been armed with longbows even prior to the development of firearms.

english colonists took the political ideas that were popular in this period with them to america.

among them were that arming individuals would serve not only for self-protection, but create a new force that could resist tyranny. this was not just because of firearms, but because the way firearms operated in that period FORCED people to organize and act as a group.

it was this organization, as much as the firearm itself, that the FFs wanted to keep to act as a check to central power.

[astralis]

Your anarchists had no qualm disrupting firing lines with molotav cocktails once they found out how effective they were.

oh, i agree. but if you were to offer them the choice of a molotov cocktail or a semi-auto/auto rifle, which one do you think they'd use?

there's a good reason why terrorist groups switched to small arms the second they became cheaper and more powerful and much more available.

[Officer of Engineers]

oh, i agree. but if you were to offer them the choice of a molotov cocktail or a semi-auto/auto rifle, which one do you think they'd use?

Both. Molotov cocktails remained in use as a cheap grenade and against thin skin (as opposed to soft) targets.

there's a good reason why terrorist groups switched to small arms the second they became cheaper and more powerful and much more available.

Meaning that they became more stupid which is a good thing. Molotovs are often rediscovered as the conflict goes on. The modern home made version are no longer just gasoline with kerosine soaked rags. The recipes have gone into far more deadly mixtures.

[zraver]

Both. Molotov cocktails remained in use as a cheap grenade and against thin skin (as opposed to soft) targets.

Meaning that they became more stupid which is a good thing. Molotovs are often rediscovered as the conflict goes on. The modern home made version are no longer just gasoline with kerosine soaked rags. The recipes have gone into far more deadly mixtures.

Biggest single act of mass murder of Americans by an American used a bomb in Oklahoma City...

[tuna]

Biggest single act of mass murder of Americans by an American used a bomb in Oklahoma City...

and the worst school killing was done with dynamite in the 1940s.

[Chogy]

The problem is sociological, period.

People intent on mass murder will find a way. Do people really think the murderer, when he can't find a handy assault rifle, will simply say "Oh darn it, I guess I'll skip my mass murder rampage today."

He will either find an illegal weapon (most likely), or will improvise. All bans ever do is remove weapons from those who abide by the law. Millions of weapons are out there. Here comes a ban. Who will turn in, or register, their guns? Think about it.

Who needs a gun, an assault rifle, a semi-auto pistol?

Who needs a motorcycle, a 500 hp sports car, an experimental airplane, a cigarette boat, skydiving gear, etc etc. It's called freedom. Just because firearms do not appeal to you, doesn't mean others do not enjoy them legally. I have zero interest in muscle cars, but would never think to deny them to others.

[astralis]

chogy,

The problem is sociological, period.

People intent on mass murder will find a way. Do people really think the murderer, when he can't find a handy assault rifle, will simply say "Oh darn it, I guess I'll skip my mass murder rampage today."

He will either find an illegal weapon (most likely), or will improvise. All bans ever do is remove weapons from those who abide by the law. Millions of weapons are out there. Here comes a ban. Who will turn in, or register, their guns? Think about it.

then why is it that mass murders by crazed individuals seem much lower throughout the rest of the Western world?

from what i see, crazed folks without access to guns don't start relying more on molotov cocktails or bombs, but instead pick up the next item down on the list, knives. otherwise we'd see equivalent levels of bomb violence throughout the rest of the world vice gun violence.

the only other conclusion is that there's something in the air here in the US that makes more people here crazy.

Just because firearms do not appeal to you, doesn't mean others do not enjoy them legally. I have zero interest in muscle cars, but would never think to deny them to others.

as a mp15-22 owner with a red-dot sight with stinger ammo, saving up for an upgrade to a SOCOM II rifle, i am sympathetic to this argument. but there's got to be limits somewhere that doesn't involve turning the US into some militarized state, with guards everywhere and everyone packing heat on the off-chance some crazy guy pops up.

[Officer of Engineers]

then why is it that mass murders by crazed individuals seem much lower throughout the rest of the Western world?

Lower?

Ever looked at Mexico, Central, and South America lately?

[astralis]

Ever looked at Mexico, Central, and South America lately?

i did say western world-- places with competent police forces, government, and a non-basket case economy.

places like...canada? :)

[Officer of Engineers]

I had thought the Americas are part of the Western World.

[Officer of Engineers]

Molotav attacks are not uncommon in the US

Authorities: Fires Started By Molotov Cocktails « CBS Detroit
Man arrested in Molotov cocktail incident in Englewood - The Denver Post
Man Throws Flaming Molotov Cocktail Through Parents' Window: LAist
'Molotov cocktail' started Hayward apartment fire; Mother and son escape | abc7news.com
Weapons, drugs, throwing star, Molotov cocktail…he had it all | CRIMEVOICE

These are all December, 2012 articles and that is just after a minute google. Guns are not the only weapon of choice. The only difference is that these fucks have not managed the mass killings and from these articles, it was only because of luck.

[dalem]

but there's got to be limits somewhere

Why?

that doesn't involve turning the US into some militarized state, with guards everywhere and everyone packing heat on the off-chance some crazy guy pops up.

That's where limits lead.

Again I ask folks - what is the problem you are trying to solve?

-dale

[Officer of Engineers]

To deny anyone the ability without authorization to mass murder a bunch of kids.