27 dead in Newtown school shooting

[NUS]

we should try to think about how to address the roots of the problem, and take effective measures.

And what are the roots of the problem in your opinion?

[antimony]

The reason why they're using firearms is because they're too damned stupid to think of anything else which is EXACTLY WHY I am not comfortable telling would be murderers that there are easier way of doing this. All you need is one and the copy cats will come out in herds.

Citizen snipers won't work. For one, they don't get enough practice. I can drop a moose at 800 yards but only after two weeks of practicing up for the season.

For another, all of you are only thinking this scenario. As I stated, there are easier ways of doing this and what I'm thinking about, a sniper won't be able to stop the killing. If you're just thinking one guard, one man, then to stop what I'm thinking about, that man needs at least a RPG and even then, pray for rain.

The average depressed perp does not have your experience and training. That is why those other methods may or may not be relevant.

If I need to do something that can be done with either a butcher knife or a scalpel, and I have a butcher knife handy, I will gladly take it. The availability (for whatever reasons, constitutional or otherwise) of guns in this country means that monsters like this do not need to get creative, they can take the easy way out.

[Blademaster]

Antimony, OOE's point is that once a person is determined to kill on a mass basis, he will not stop until he comes up with a way to kill on a mass basis. The lack of easy ways out will not stop a determined person from thinking of it and carrying it out.

[Officer of Engineers]

If I need to do something that can be done with either a butcher knife or a scalpel, and I have a butcher knife handy, I will gladly take it. The availability (for whatever reasons, constitutional or otherwise) of guns in this country means that monsters like this do not need to get creative, they can take the easy way out.

Using your example, yes, you have a butcher knife and a scalpel but the hammer is right beside you. I don't want to point out the hammer is right beside you.

[citanon]

And what are the roots of the problem in your opinion?

In this case, the first line of defense was the gunman's family. They were best positioned to stop this before it began. They had every incentive to. Yet they clearly failed, and suffered grievous harm.

Were there signs they could have spotted? Were there specific questions that parents could ask adolescent or young adults to reveal the danger signs? Were there measures they could have taken to prevent it? Are there ways that families can be better educated about dealing with anger, isolation, or even personality disorders of family members? Are there signs that systematic planned violence is imminent? If so, are there mechanisms where they can get help to deal with it? We educate people today about suicide intervention (not enough), there is more we can do about violence intervention.

The second thing we have to look at is, where the heck did he get this idea? The media has to rethink the way it covers these events because it is all too glorifying to the shooter and that may be one of the primary drivers. We have to ask our selves, how the coverage can change to make this less likely to happen rather than more.

That doesn't begin to cover it, but those are two obvious places to start.

[Officer of Engineers]

Antimony, OOE's point is that once a person is determined to kill on a mass basis, he will not stop until he comes up with a way to kill on a mass basis. The lack of easy ways out will not stop a determined person from thinking of it and carrying it out.

Yes, precisely. However, one caveat. It's not an easy way out simply that they have not figured it out. Once they get the hint, it is so damned easy that firearms is a poor 2nd choice by comparison.

[McFire]

I don't see that as relevant here. There was nothing to stop him from buying the guns himself; if he so chose.

He was 20 years old...and not allowed to legally buy firearms or ammo in Connecticut. Illegally, there was nothing to stop him.

[McFire]

And what are the roots of the problem in your opinion?

The core of the problem? When the mentally-disturbed were "de-institutionalized" in the 1980's. Too much worry about the individual rights of the mentally-disturbed. Nowadays, the mentally-disturbed are cared for at home by non-professionals (family)...and what happens when there is no real supervision to detect tendencies of violence, suicidal thoughts, etc.? What happens when no one is making sure the mentally-disturbed are taking their medications? These incidents are being committed by nut-jobs, not your normal John Q. or Jane Q. Public.

Guns are not the problem. When a mentally-disturbed person is determined to kill and a gun isn't available, they won't be deterred. They'll just use a different weapon. What would have stopped him from plowing a car into a crowded school bus stop? How about throwing a molotov cocktail at some kids? Or a gas can bomb into a school bus? The choices are endless.

Actions have consequences. Just as there was an increase in violent crime when the prisons were emptied out in the 60's, so there is an increase in crimes by the mentally-disturbed by closing down the "Nervous Hospitals" in the 80's. Some mentally-disturbed people are beyond the care they can get receive at home, especially if they are off their medications, but there's nowhere to put them now.

[Pedicabby]

Just as there was an increase in violent crime when the prisons were emptied out in the 60's

Huh? Did they just let a bunch of em go?

[Red Team]

To me it isn't an issue so much about a gun control (it is partly) as it is a mental health issue, the man was clearly disturbed and in his warped mind decided to perpetrate this atrocity out of a distorted sense of self-satisfaction or a lack of self-control. It just so happened he had access to an array of firearms purchased by a registered user, and very well could have used other means to his end. Sure the government could create tighter regulations on gun laws further preventing access to mentally disturbed individuals, and it may reduce the likelihood of this happening again. But in the long term, there needs to be a change in the common perceptions of firearms not as a medium for violence, but as a potent tool requiring extreme discretion in their use.

[zraver]

Antimony, OOE's point is that once a person is determined to kill on a mass basis, he will not stop until he comes up with a way to kill on a mass basis. The lack of easy ways out will not stop a determined person from thinking of it and carrying it out.

Yup, all you can do is harden the sites you hold the most dear to steer the perp to other sites. For example from the tight confines of a class room full of first graders into say the more open spaces of a mall. Note, terroristic mass shootings are a different animal than many work place mass shootings where the perp has a much better ability to by-pass security scrutiny and at least a vague who as a target.

[antimony]

Yes, precisely. However, one caveat. It's not an easy way out simply that they have not figured it out. Once they get the hint, it is so damned easy that firearms is a poor 2nd choice by comparison.

You guys and McFire and others seem to be saying that if guns are not widely available then the perp will try to find an alternative. I agree, but I also think that if that alternative is not something readily apparent ( and lets not start quoting ideas here, we do not need to know any of them) then that becomes a deterrent.

If I am intent on doing something and I cannot (easily) find the tools for doing so; I would move on to something else.

Having said that, I agree with Mcfire that we need to take the politically incorrect stance of actually doing something to help the mentally ill and not just entrust them to a loving but careless family.

[InExile]

You guys and McFire and others seem to be saying that if guns are not widely available then the perp will try to find an alternative. I agree, but I also think that if that alternative is not something readily apparent ( and lets not start quoting ideas here, we do not need to know any of them) then that becomes a deterrent.

If I am intent on doing something and I cannot (easily) find the tools for doing so; I would move on to something else.

Yes, I agree with this. If finding an alternative were that easy you would think that mass killings by means not involving firearms would be far more common in countries with restrictive gun laws; but that is clearly not the case.

[bonehead]

You guys and McFire and others seem to be saying that if guns are not widely available then the perp will try to find an alternative. I agree, but I also think that if that alternative is not something readily apparent ( and lets not start quoting ideas here, we do not need to know any of them) then that becomes a deterrent.

If I am intent on doing something and I cannot (easily) find the tools for doing so; I would move on to something else.

Having said that, I agree with Mcfire that we need to take the politically incorrect stance of actually doing something to help the mentally ill and not just entrust them to a loving but careless family.

Years ago my criminal justice teacher was an assistant D.A. One of the things I remember most from her was that in her decades of prosecuting cases of this nature is that no one had ever said, "I really wanted to kill such and such right then and there but I couldn't find a suitable weapon so I changed my mind." Crimes of passion will employ anything within reach.

More calculating and cold blooded perps make a general plan. If they can't get weapon "A" they move on to "B", but sooner or later they will carry out their plan.

[Officer of Engineers]

McFire, please edit your post as to avoid naming the alternatives. We don't need to give anyone else any ideas.

You guys and McFire and others seem to be saying that if guns are not widely available then the perp will try to find an alternative. I agree, but I also think that if that alternative is not something readily apparent ( and lets not start quoting ideas here, we do not need to know any of them) then that becomes a deterrent.

Like I said, all it takes is one and you will have copy cats in herds.

Yes, I agree with this. If finding an alternative were that easy you would think that mass killings by means not involving firearms would be far more common in countries with restrictive gun laws; but that is clearly not the case.

Cambodia, Rwanda, Xinjiang, Congo, former Yugoslavia and Chechnya (it's called freezing), Somalia (starvation), South Africa (burning, especially the burning tire necklace) ... you want me to go on?