27 dead in Newtown school shooting

[dalem]

Is a background check required for private sales by ad or at gun shows in most states or not. I said it wasnt you said I was clueless. I think it's establshed fact now what the law is most places isnt it? You still havent sourced your claim I was clueless on that point

Sourced my claim? I've been to gun shows and bought guns there. You haven't.

-dale

[Versus]

I find it very hard to write about this. It is almost like a well intended but futile attempt to go back in time and prevent the massacre by analysing the case. However, another part of me thinks that we should discuss about this in order to prevent these events from happening again.

As usual, this debate has turned itself into the pro and anti gun debate. Although the massacre has committed by firearms, firearms,on their own,didn't went to the school and started shoot out. The guns needed the fingers to pull the trigger and they needed the eyes for the aim. Also they needed the brain to identify the target. In other words, they needed a human being in order to full fill their purpose. And the purpose of a gun is to kill cause in its nature the gun is a weapon and the nature of the weapon is to kill. But again it can't do it on its own , because without a killer, the weapon is just a piece of metal and it is harmless. Therefore, guns didn't kill those children, Adam Lanza did.

Adam Lanza, a 20 year old young man, killed his mother first and then drove to the school and committed massacre after which he committed suicide. Nancy Lanza was Adam's mother and his first victim. She firmly believed in the collapse of the modern society and was described as paranoid by her family. Others classify her as a member of survivalist movement, the prepper as it is commonly known. All adult victims were women, except the principle and among children 12 were little girls and eight were boys. Also Nancy was divorced and her former husband was a plumber.

Stop and Rewind.

Nancy Lanza, as a member of the survivalist movement, belongs to the certain mindset and philosophy. That movement has an ideology. So Nancy Lanza was under the influence of that ideology, which states that the society will suffer a violent collapse and that people should be ready to survive on their own. In other words, the way how Nancy understood the collapse story, was that collapsing society is the biggest threat than the process of collapse itself. So her “enemy” is not the collapse but it is the society (that is collapsing). Why than, would you rely on it to survive? Firearms are industrial products and as such they require special knowledge, materials and machines in order to be produced. Also ammunition requires the same process. So why did she expect to survive by owning industrial based product which can be produced only by the developed society that exists as a structure with some type of order if she believed in the society collapse and the demise of that order? Why divorcing a man (plumber) whom has some technical knowledge that can come handy in the times of need? Why divorcing at all if you expect for the world to end? I mean you don't have to love him, but if you have this prediction, it is far better to have another human being by your side, I don't know, as friend, a human being that can ACTUALLY do something useful with his hands and basic tools, when the world comes tumbling down.

It doesn't make any sense.

If Nancy was teaching her children in such way, that the society is going to crumble, why she wanted help for her son, from the society? If the society is going to collapse why handing over the care for Adam to the society? Wouldn't that be like, I don't know, some type of sentence? Wouldn't it feel like a REJECTION. Like a betrayal maybe? So Adam is trained and taught to survive the apocalypse and then rejected (handed over) to the structure of the society (mental hospital) that is going to collapse (aka sentenced to death).

The only natural response to this would be to destroy the society that has no future (because its is on the verge of collapse) and therefore no value and meaning and punish the traitor (aka killing Nancy). So after Adam, punished the traitor, he went to the place where the traitor worked and where the traitor was created (giving care to other children and not to Adam is a treason in his mind) with the intention to destroy it. And there he killed mostly girls (girl-women-mother link) so after that act, when he realised what he did, as a final escape he commits suicide.

[Bigfella]

OR, you just made up a bunch of stuff based on something you read somewhere. This young man's father & brother have both stated that they have no idea what motivated him to do this & they actually knew him. We may yet gain some insight into his motivations, we may not. I don't see that constructing elaborate scenarios based on a few shreds of information is any more helpful than the predictible 'pro & anti' argument.

[Versus]

OR, you just made up a bunch of stuff based on something you read somewhere. This young man's father & brother have both stated that they have no idea what motivated him to do this & they actually knew him. We may yet gain some insight into his motivations, we may not. I don't see that constructing elaborate scenarios based on a few shreds of information is any more helpful than the predictible 'pro & anti' argument.

Well, to me, it looks like that inner insecurity of a mother got projected onto the outside world and that her lifestyle and thus the lifestyle of her sons was affected by it. If she felt insecure and then projected that insecurity on to the society's collapse, she would than assume the role of the protector thus making her a survivalist and the prepper. Cause like that, she is “above” the situation, she is the one who knows what is coming and that makes her confident and that is what she needs the most. A feeling of security.

We had a similar case here, during the 90es, when a wife ditched the guy and he wrote a book that portrayed the Serbs as nation with the divine characteristics, that are chosen and blessed by God. The book had more than 1000 pages and it was advertised on TV. But since it was placed in the mystical context, cause it was based on pseudo history, that book served, among many others, as a moral justification for the policy of the regime and directly supported the war efforts. But in essence it was an escapist trick. The guy would feel much better as a member of a nation that is divine and has some higher purpose, then for what he really was- a ditched husband with the crushed self esteem. Like this, as a member of the divine cause, his divorce doesn't hurt as much cause it is nothing compared to the delusion of grandeur aka being a member of the “chosen ones”. The chosen ones, since they are so powerful, they can fall in love, marry and divorce in the same day so it is no big deal, that his wife went to her lover and left him alone. What he did was a classical example of inverted projection.

But again, this is nothing more than a theory, different from the pro and anti gun one. And it should be taken with the grain of salt, just the same as the gun one.

[Bigfella]

But again, this is nothing more than a theory, different from the pro and anti gun one. And it should be taken with the grain of salt, just the same as the gun one.

There isn't really any speculation involved in the observation that he committed the murders with readily available guns. You are correct about your own observations, however.

[Roosveltrepub]

Sourced my claim? I've been to gun shows and bought guns there. You haven't.

-dale

"A "naked" assertion is simply an assertion without any evidence, proof, or other support. It is usually based on the false presumption that since we all have "a right to an opinion", that this implies that our opinions must be automatically accepted as valid. What invariably proceeds the blunder of a "naked" assertion is the logical fallacy of "shifting the burden of proof" which further illustrates that the arguer has no concept of logic."
Really no point in engaging you of you can say because I saids so as your source.

[USSWisconsin]

I find it very hard to write about this. It is almost like a well intended but futile attempt to go back in time and prevent the massacre by analysing the case. However, another part of me thinks that we should discuss about this in order to prevent these events from happening again.

As usual, this debate has turned itself into the pro and anti gun debate. Although the massacre has committed by firearms, firearms,on their own,didn't went to the school and started shoot out. The guns needed the fingers to pull the trigger and they needed the eyes for the aim. Also they needed the brain to identify the target. In other words, they needed a human being in order to full fill their purpose. And the purpose of a gun is to kill cause in its nature the gun is a weapon and the nature of the weapon is to kill. But again it can't do it on its own , because without a killer, the weapon is just a piece of metal and it is harmless. Therefore, guns didn't kill those children, Adam Lanza did.

Adam Lanza, a 20 year old young man, killed his mother first and then drove to the school and committed massacre after which he committed suicide. Nancy Lanza was Adam's mother and his first victim. She firmly believed in the collapse of the modern society and was described as paranoid by her family. Others classify her as a member of survivalist movement, the prepper as it is commonly known. All adult victims were women, except the principle and among children 12 were little girls and eight were boys. Also Nancy was divorced and her former husband was a plumber.

Stop and Rewind.

Nancy Lanza, as a member of the survivalist movement, belongs to the certain mindset and philosophy. That movement has an ideology. So Nancy Lanza was under the influence of that ideology, which states that the society will suffer a violent collapse and that people should be ready to survive on their own. In other words, the way how Nancy understood the collapse story, was that collapsing society is the biggest threat than the process of collapse itself. So her “enemy” is not the collapse but it is the society (that is collapsing). Why than, would you rely on it to survive? Firearms are industrial products and as such they require special knowledge, materials and machines in order to be produced. Also ammunition requires the same process. So why did she expect to survive by owning industrial based product which can be produced only by the developed society that exists as a structure with some type of order if she believed in the society collapse and the demise of that order? Why divorcing a man (plumber) whom has some technical knowledge that can come handy in the times of need? Why divorcing at all if you expect for the world to end? I mean you don't have to love him, but if you have this prediction, it is far better to have another human being by your side, I don't know, as friend, a human being that can ACTUALLY do something useful with his hands and basic tools, when the world comes tumbling down.

It doesn't make any sense.

If Nancy was teaching her children in such way, that the society is going to crumble, why she wanted help for her son, from the society? If the society is going to collapse why handing over the care for Adam to the society? Wouldn't that be like, I don't know, some type of sentence? Wouldn't it feel like a REJECTION. Like a betrayal maybe? So Adam is trained and taught to survive the apocalypse and then rejected (handed over) to the structure of the society (mental hospital) that is going to collapse (aka sentenced to death).

The only natural response to this would be to destroy the society that has no future (because its is on the verge of collapse) and therefore no value and meaning and punish the traitor (aka killing Nancy). So after Adam, punished the traitor, he went to the place where the traitor worked and where the traitor was created (giving care to other children and not to Adam is a treason in his mind) with the intention to destroy it. And there he killed mostly girls (girl-women-mother link) so after that act, when he realised what he did, as a final escape he commits suicide.

No one in the killer's family worked at the school - the media reports have been wildly inaccurate

[zraver]

There isn't really any speculation involved in the observation that he committed the murders with readily available guns. You are correct about your own observations, however.

Yes, a mother with a child with a known history of emotional issues- taught him to shoot, bought him tactical gear and made access to said weapons far too easy. That is the type of situation we need to fix. Be it bad parenting, or in some cases the inability to parents to protect others because of the system the fix starts at home not the gun store.

[Chogy]

"A "naked" assertion is simply an assertion without any evidence, proof, or other support. It is usually based on the false presumption that since we all have "a right to an opinion", that this implies that our opinions must be automatically accepted as valid. What invariably proceeds the blunder of a "naked" assertion is the logical fallacy of "shifting the burden of proof" which further illustrates that the arguer has no concept of logic."
Really no point in engaging you of you can say because I saids so as your source.

RR, the point I think you are missing is that gun shows are not the primary source of weapons to be used criminally. It is miniscule. As pointed out earlier, the vast majority of guns obtained by criminals, for criminal use, are stolen or bought on the street.

The old guy at the gun show selling his collection of deer rifles and old semi-auto pistols and revolvers isn't the problem.

I want to re-emphasize - it is NOT the scary military weapons that cause the most gun fatalities overall. It is inexpensive, small caliber pistols, especially .22LR, .25 ACP, .38 special. The original AWB was particularly ludicrous because it was written by emotional people with little understanding of firearms.

Here is a pre-ban weapon:



Post-ban rifle after the original AWB:



Does the lower rifle lacking a flash hider and bayonet lug somehow prevent it from being every bit as effective as the pre-ban weapon? Knee-jerk laws do little to address the root of the problem, which is the person behind the weapon.

[Versus]

No one in the killer's family worked at the school - the media reports have been wildly inaccurate

EXCLUSIVE: Fear of being committed may have caused Connecticut gunman to snap | Fox News

I ment volunteering, which is still a work, only it is unpaid.

[antimony]

RR, the point I think you are missing is that gun shows are not the primary source of weapons to be used criminally. It is miniscule. As pointed out earlier, the vast majority of guns obtained by criminals, for criminal use, are stolen or bought on the street.

The old guy at the gun show selling his collection of deer rifles and old semi-auto pistols and revolvers isn't the problem.

I want to re-emphasize - it is NOT the scary military weapons that cause the most gun fatalities overall. It is inexpensive, small caliber pistols, especially .22LR, .25 ACP, .38 special. The original AWB was particularly ludicrous because it was written by emotional people with little understanding of firearms.

Here is a pre-ban weapon:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]31278[/ATTACH]

Post-ban rifle after the original AWB:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]31279[/ATTACH]

Does the lower rifle lacking a flash hider and bayonet lug somehow prevent it from being every bit as effective as the pre-ban weapon? Knee-jerk laws do little to address the root of the problem, which is the person behind the weapon.

No bayonet lug, fixed stock, no flash hider. Obviously this means that the gun will now shoot BB pellets instead of bullets. Golly, I feel so much safer now :slap:

[omon]

Gun shows also have private sales Oman. Licensed dealers at shows run the checks. the loophole pertains to private sales at shows which do occur. I already posted sources fr my claim which stated the actual law. Please show me where private sales at gunshows always require background checks or surrender the point for lack of sourcing

where is a face palm smiley when you need one.

[Doktor]

This is going into extremes...

Joakim Noah holsters 'six-shooter celebration' after tragedy

[Roosveltrepub]

OR, you just made up a bunch of stuff based on something you read somewhere. This young man's father & brother have both stated that they have no idea what motivated him to do this & they actually knew him. We may yet gain some insight into his motivations, we may not. I don't see that constructing elaborate scenarios based on a few shreds of information is any more helpful than the predictible 'pro & anti' argument.

While it is conjecture what isn't conjecture is she was expecting the fairly immenient of society because of a financial collapse. If you lived here you would know we had some media types hyping that mesage and talking about 700 perent inflation and american re education camps and the collectivism around the corner and the brainwashing of kids in americorps as "secret police" http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...55534169,d.dmQ Glenn beck Bachmann, AmeriCorps and 'Re-education camps' - On Congress - POLITICO.com The American re education camps Rush Limbaugh Fears Collectivism in America american colectivism The end isnear Subculture of Americans prepares for civilization's collapse | Reuters These are messages ver major media outlets. Nancy Lanza was prearing for the end she was told as "news" was bareling toward us. She bought the guns fr that purpose and the body armor. It is why she took her kid to shooting ranges because she thught there was a real chance she would need to defend her home when society failed. Add to that He was 20, disturbed and home scholed and it is conjecture but certainly not wild conjecture that he was raised believing thise things as fact. When they salvage that HD we will know but the idea that terrorizing citizens with wild lies and irrational claims on the public air waves is real here and profitable. Just ask Goldline

[Roosveltrepub]

where is a facepalm smily when you need one.

That is the loophole... Christ even people like Joe Scarborough and Joe Manchin are talking about it