27 dead in Newtown school shooting

[zraver]

Dale, Here is the problem with this or any other mass shooting. Right to bear arms is a right, not an obligation. You cannot force anyone to bear arms, regardless of what the constitution says and you sure cannot as hell make them pay to get adequately trained.

I know the teachers in my daughter's school. They are good people and some of them certainly may show the heroics acts the Newtown school teachers showed, but most of them would not g anywhere near a gun.

You don't need to arm all of them, just the ones who want to do the job and can pass the back ground checks and mental evals. They pay for the training for the right to carry in the class. The perps wont know if 1 or 100 teachers in a school are armed or which ones they are- they will look for a safer target.

We also need to consider hardening schools by installing doors that lack windows (where a perp can reach the handle) and that open outward to resist being kicked in.

[tankie]

Some good debates on the why's n wherefores of gun ownership , and the way POTUS came across on TV today was strictly for action on gun control , I reckon your 2nd is going to be severely tested in the future .

RIP all the slain .

[Firestorm]

It may be an issue to some. I LIKE the fact that they're decreasing. Now if we get some teachers packing and whack a few of these scumbags before they finish their slaughters we'd be even better off.

The Facts about Mass Shootings - John Fund - National Review Online

-dale

I'm trying to picture a scenario where a few of the people in that Colorado theater were packing, and tried to fight back:

So, the perp enters the theater in the dark and starts shooting. Say there are three guys with guns sitting separately, who whip out their firearms to retaliate. Keep in mind that none of them have any training whatsoever apart from a little time at the local gun range. But lets just assume that they don't panic and run under fire but stay calm enough to fire in the direction of the gunfire. Armed citizen number 1 starts firing in the direction of original shooter. Armed citizen no. 2 doesn't know how many bad guys there really are (now that there is fire coming from 2 directions) and starts firing at both the original perp and armed citizen number 1. Armed citizen number 3 is even more confused, and fires mistakenly at Armed citizen number 2. Now the rest of the people are caught in the crossfire between 4 shooters, instead of 1. And all this happens within the first few seconds. I fail to see how this will not be worse than what actually happened when there were no armed citizens, unless of course all 3 of them were cops or ex-soldiers.

[antimony]

You don't need to arm all of them, just the ones who want to do the job and can pass the back ground checks and mental evals. They pay for the training for the right to carry in the class. The perps wont know if 1 or 100 teachers in a school are armed or which ones they are- they will look for a safer target.

We also need to consider hardening schools by installing doors that lack windows (where a perp can reach the handle) and that open outward to resist being kicked in.

Hardening the schools, especially elementary schools is an absolute no brainer and I don't think 1 armed guard apiece for each school is a huge thing to ask, or some other arrangements by which first responders can reach at a very short notice. Places like malls or others have various entry points thourhg which people can escape, not so for schools.

I'm trying to picture a scenario where a few of the people in that Colorado theater were packing, and tried to fight back:

So, the perp enters the theater in the dark and starts shooting. Say there are three guys with guns sitting separately, who whip out their firearms to retaliate. Keep in mind that none of them have any training whatsoever apart from a little time at the local gun range. But lets just assume that they don't panic and run under fire but stay calm enough to fire in the direction of the gunfire. Armed citizen number 1 starts firing in the direction of original shooter. Armed citizen no. 2 doesn't know how many bad guys there really are (now that there is fire coming from 2 directions) and starts firing at both the original perp and armed citizen number 1. Armed citizen number 3 is even more confused, and fires mistakenly at Armed citizen number 2. Now the rest of the people are caught in the crossfire between 4 shooters, instead of 1. And all this happens within the first few seconds. I fail to see how this will not be worse than what actually happened when there were no armed citizens, unless of course all 3 of them were cops or ex-soldiers.

I am fairly convinced that this would result n a greater disaster, at least for the Aurora case. First of all, gun ownership or not, its plain irresponsible to venture out with a loaded carry piece without training. However, I would imagine that most handgun training is meant to deal with purse snatching perps, not the ones armed with semi-auto rifles and bulletproof jackets. Even if I am armed and trained to use my gun, as a civilian I would retreat if I see I am outgunned.

Finally, unless someone is trained extensively, keeping ones head cool under fire is a very big assumption. That is why every self defense gun course stresses the importance of practice and also choosing something that is simple to operate.

[dalem]

Dale, Here is the problem with this or any other mass shooting. Right to bear arms is a right, not an obligation. You cannot force anyone to bear arms, regardless of what the constitution says and you sure cannot as hell make them pay to get adequately trained.

I know the teachers in my daughter's school. They are good people and some of them certainly may show the heroics acts the Newtown school teachers showed, but most of them would not g anywhere near a gun.

Sure, my only real point is that we need more men. In general. I don't even care (much) about what they do or don't have swinging between their legs - I want more people running TOWARD the a-hole punk with the boomstick, not AWAY.

-dale

[dalem]

I'm trying to picture a scenario where a few of the people in that Colorado theater were packing, and tried to fight back:

So, the perp enters the theater in the dark and starts shooting. Say there are three guys with guns sitting separately, who whip out their firearms to retaliate. Keep in mind that none of them have any training whatsoever apart from a little time at the local gun range. But lets just assume that they don't panic and run under fire but stay calm enough to fire in the direction of the gunfire. Armed citizen number 1 starts firing in the direction of original shooter. Armed citizen no. 2 doesn't know how many bad guys there really are (now that there is fire coming from 2 directions) and starts firing at both the original perp and armed citizen number 1. Armed citizen number 3 is even more confused, and fires mistakenly at Armed citizen number 2. Now the rest of the people are caught in the crossfire between 4 shooters, instead of 1. And all this happens within the first few seconds. I fail to see how this will not be worse than what actually happened when there were no armed citizens, unless of course all 3 of them were cops or ex-soldiers.

Do whatever you want. Me, I hope I'm fighting back with whatever I have.

-dale

[dalem]

I am fairly convinced that this would result n a greater disaster, at least for the Aurora case. First of all, gun ownership or not, its plain irresponsible to venture out with a loaded carry piece without training.

Hm. What do you consider to be training?

-dale

[zraver]

Hm. What do you consider to be training?

-dale

Our nation has been at war for more than a decade, before that the Persian Gulf war, Cold War, Vietnam, off duty law enforcement, IPSIC/IDPA/ Cowboy/Trap shooting participant.... The average gun owner may not be a SEAL but most probably have some sort of training. Plus the whole idea of a greater disaster is hogwash. Some people might get caught in the cross fire, but the fact some one is fighting back means the shooting barrel the perp wanted is now a live fire zone where he is a target as well. He will either A- kill himself, B- defend himself (allowing people to escape) C- retreat. The idea he would continue to try and shoot innocents with people shooting at him is insane.

Then there are people like Dale and myself (and many other members of WAB) who will run to the sound of the guns. Unless I have my son with me I am attacking- period full stop. people did that at Aurora and many of them died but the fact the perp had to kill the let other escape. Dale and I might not agree on almost anything but here we do and I don't think either one of us is getting in the life boat.

[astralis]

Now if we get some teachers packing and whack a few of these scumbags before they finish their slaughters we'd be even better off.

even if teachers could pack heat, i can see how the first kid shot dead in the first crossfire between a teacher and an attacker...worse...accidentally shot by the teacher...would be the end of that.

and given how even police whom supposedly are trained hit innocent folks in a crossfire, wouldn't exactly be a surprise if a teacher made that mistake too.

[zraver]

even if teachers could pack heat, i can see how the first kid shot dead in the first crossfire between a teacher and an attacker...worse...accidentally shot by the teacher...would be the end of that.

and given how even police whom supposedly are trained hit innocent folks in a crossfire, wouldn't exactly be a surprise if a teacher made that mistake too.

Triage, sad as it is, a kid caught in a cross fire vs a room full caught in a room with a psycho... In active shooter situations you can save the first victim, you can't and you save anyone until you can fight back.

[dalem]

Our nation has been at war for more than a decade, before that the Persian Gulf war, Cold War, Vietnam, off duty law enforcement, IPSIC/IDPA/ Cowboy/Trap shooting participant.... The average gun owner may not be a SEAL but most probably have some sort of training. Plus the whole idea of a greater disaster is hogwash. Some people might get caught in the cross fire, but the fact some one is fighting back means the shooting barrel the perp wanted is now a live fire zone where he is a target as well. He will either A- kill himself, B- defend himself (allowing people to escape) C- retreat. The idea he would continue to try and shoot innocents with people shooting at him is insane.

Then there are people like Dale and myself (and many other members of WAB) who will run to the sound of the guns. Unless I have my son with me I am attacking- period full stop. people did that at Aurora and many of them died but the fact the perp had to kill the let other escape. Dale and I might not agree on almost anything but here we do and I don't think either one of us is getting in the life boat.

I HOPE I would run to the sound of the guns. I don't know.

-dale

[Officer of Engineers]

For full auto, yes, what about semi-auto? Its a controlled rate of fire.

Reacquring aim.

We have already seen the results. Do you not think the results would have different if was a bolt action instead of the AR-15? And in the hands of a semi-trained civilian, not an armyman.

This is not an armyman speciality. It's a skeet shooter/fowl hunter must have.

[dalem]

even if teachers could pack heat, i can see how the first kid shot dead in the first crossfire between a teacher and an attacker...worse...accidentally shot by the teacher...would be the end of that.

and given how even police whom supposedly are trained hit innocent folks in a crossfire, wouldn't exactly be a surprise if a teacher made that mistake too.

Yeah, but it's happened before - teachers and students either killing or pinning down a would-be school shooter.

Bottom line is that one of the reasons these assjacks go to a school is because it's a free-fire trap with lots of easy targets. Waste a few of them and the ones that can reason will search for other targets.

The real bottom line is that adult male citizens should be armed and/or willing to fight and protect. We've spent two or three generations feminizing this country - until we stop it's just going to get worse.

-dale

[zraver]

I HOPE I would run to the sound of the guns. I don't know.

-dale

Minus having to get my son to safety I am headed for the sound of the guns. I HOPE you would as well. I think anyone who knows what to do will do so. The greatest generation wasn't the bravest, they just knew what had to be done and did it. I think that all courage is, is the ability to recognize what needs to be done and having the sense of responsibility to do it.

[Officer of Engineers]

I HOPE I would run to the sound of the guns. I don't know.

-dale

I don't know either ... but I do know you're not going to be running away.