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Why not public sector unions?... Chicago is a good example of why not to have them.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by bonehead View Post
    I could go on on on but I will stop at two examples. Middle of nowhere N.Dakota might have tiny numbers of students to offset what nearly every other state is experiencing and that is much larger numbers of students in the class room. The high school where my wife works has some class rooms approaching 50. She graduated from that school &^%%$ years ago and guess what? She had 17 in her "home room". You might want to visit a few schools when out and about to see for yourself.
    The US is a overwhelmingly urban/suburban nation, there are not a middle of nowheres to go from 50:1 to 20:1, sorry there just isn't.

    School budget cuts Really? you need proof? After you even admitted "Kids do need exposure to the arts and it is often cut as other costs rise". Her you go anyway. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...--and-the.html .
    Class sizes - MyRecordJournal.com: Editorial Google "school budget cuts" and you will find hundreds of proofs.
    By and large, budgets are not cut, costs rise. One of the big rising costs is teacher benefits and retirement costs. Teachers can claim they care about kids, but when they resist going to a 401k style plan they are more interested in lining their own pockets than producing effective citizens.

    [quote]
    Ask yourself "why do other countries send their best and brightest to America to learn engineering? The answer is because America has the best [post-secondary] educational system.
    fixed

    Americans have many opportunities that do not exist in any great numbers in other countries. In the 60'-70's prospective engineers wanted to be NASA geeks. Now "smart people" can be financiers, researchers doctors etc. Lastly engineering has fallen out of favor because old stand bys like NASA have been cut to the bone. Furthermore, many who could go into engineering are put off with the prospect of going through all that education and expense only to be outsourced for pennies on the dollar.
    Part of the outsourcing problem is foreign workers don't have bloated retirement and health care costs...

    The cost of building, maintenance, lawsuits,energy bills,school books, security, and other things go up every year too. The cost of educating is far more than teachers salaries and benefits.
    Yup, but the cost of teachers is the biggest expense.

    Kids are like nails. Sometimes you need a bigger hammer and a tutor fits that bill.
    yup

    Comment


    • #32
      [QUOTE=zraver;886507]The US is a overwhelmingly urban/suburban nation, there are not a middle of nowheres to go from 50:1 to 20:1, sorry there just isn't.



      By and large, budgets are not cut, costs rise. One of the big rising costs is teacher benefits and retirement costs. Teachers can claim they care about kids, but when they resist going to a 401k style plan they are more interested in lining their own pockets than producing effective citizens.


      fixed



      Part of the outsourcing problem is foreign workers don't have bloated retirement and health care costs...



      Yup, but the cost of teachers is the biggest expense.



      yup
      There are lots of places with few people and a lot of far in-betweens. Alaska, both Dakotas, Wyoming, Montana, Utah, Nevada. There are a few places in eastern Oregon where kids have been bussed in from a long way just to get enough kids to make up a class room for the week. Not all of America is shoulder to shoulder people. I really don't know how they count teachers either. Many special needs kids are mandated 1:1 and if those teachers are counted that would really throw off the averages.

      Have you seen what happened to people's 401K in recent history? Only a fool would take a 401K over a defined benefit.

      If you went to grad school to get an advanced degree, had to continue education on a regular basis, was in charge of rearing the next generation but got flack from parents to people who have no clue of the job description and had little to no say about teaching practices/standards what pay and benefits would you hold out for?

      As for engineers I doubt its the bloated retirement and healthcare package. I put my money on the fact that engineers from a third world country is willing to do the work for 5 bucks a day and is most happy to get the job because everywhere around him unemployment is 20-30% and is working for a dollar a day at best.
      Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by bonehead View Post
        I didn't go to any schools in Taiwan so I can not compare.
        Originally posted by bonehead View Post
        Class size always made a huge difference for me and a myriad of other students I know.
        Taiwan's elementary schools had average class size of 55 to 65 kids when I was there.

        I suppose Taiwan's education system is far worse than ours...
        "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by gunnut View Post
          Taiwan's elementary schools had average class size of 55 to 65 kids when I was there.

          I suppose Taiwan's education system is far worse than ours...
          Not so fast gunnut. How many kids were in the class that spoke Spanish and little of the local language? How many "special needs children" were in the class? Did you have to suffer the "no child left behind" fiasco? Were out of control kids kicked out of the class room or even punished at all in Taiwan? Were drugs rampant? Gangs? How was education valued in Taiwan? How many different cultures and races were represented in the class room?
          Last edited by bonehead; 27 Sep 12,, 03:15.
          Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by bonehead View Post
            Not so fast gunnut. How many kids were in the class that spoke Spanish and little of the local language?
            Not Spanish, but Taiwan did have a lot of kids who spoke Taiwanese at home and not Mandarin.

            Originally posted by bonehead View Post
            How many "special needs children" were in the class?
            They were there. They were labeled "stupid." And often punished for not performing well in standard tests.

            Originally posted by bonehead View Post
            Did you have to suffer the "no child left behind" fiasco?
            Hell yeah. Probably worse.

            Originally posted by bonehead View Post
            Were out of control kids kicked out of the class room or even punished at all in Taiwan?
            They were beaten. (not sure if it's still that way now)

            Originally posted by bonehead View Post
            Were drugs rampant?
            Smoking is. And they were punished.

            Originally posted by bonehead View Post
            Gangs?
            Bullies.

            Originally posted by bonehead View Post
            How was education valued in Taiwan?
            Highly, just like all other Asian cultures.

            Originally posted by bonehead View Post
            How many different cultures and races were represented in the class room?
            Two. You have the Taiwanese and the Mainlanders. Speaking Taiwanese was forbidden in public schools. (probably not any more though)
            "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by gunnut View Post
              Not Spanish, but Taiwan did have a lot of kids who spoke Taiwanese at home and not Mandarin.



              They were there. They were labeled "stupid." And often punished for not performing well in standard tests.



              Hell yeah. Probably worse.



              They were beaten. (not sure if it's still that way now)



              Smoking is. And they were punished.



              Bullies.



              Highly, just like all other Asian cultures.



              Two. You have the Taiwanese and the Mainlanders. Speaking Taiwanese was forbidden in public schools. (probably not any more though)


              Your teachers had it easy.
              Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

              Comment


              • #37
                Z,
                This is how it is in my neck of the woods. Less teachers but even more kids. Remember that many of these schools were build in the 50's-60's and with much smaller class rooms in mind. Salem-Keizer is the largest district in the state.



                More Salem-Keizer elementary school classrooms have 30 or more kids this fall compared to last year, and kindergarteners make up nearly half of the large classes.

                Keizer, Clear Lake, Chapman Hill, Hallman and Hayesville elementary schools all have kindergarten classes with 34 or more students. Last year only one kindergarten class swelled to that size.

                But relief is on the way for the largest classes. Kindergarten classes with 34 or more students will get divided as soon as this week, and those between 31 and 33 will get instructional assistants.

                Assistants also are on the way to first-grade classes larger than 32, third-grade classes larger than 33, and fourth- and fifth-grade classes larger than 34.

                It’s the second year the district has struggled to balance class sizes with fewer teachers. Salem-Keizer cut nearly 250 full-time teaching positions in 2011 as part of a $55 million budget shortfall.

                “Now we’re starting to feel the full pinch of last year’s cuts,” said Rachel Stucky, principal at Wright Elementary School, where three classes hold more than 30 students.

                This year, nine more classrooms grew to that size compared to counts from Dec. 1, 2011, the closest available. Nearly one out of four classrooms hit enrollments that high.

                Despite the pockets of larger classes, the average size is down and lower than budgeted, said Meera Kreitzer, director of elementary education.

                Still she understands it’s tough for teachers.

                “It’s harder for our teachers when they have this many kids,” she said, “but that’s the reality everywhere with the budget reductions.”

                Fifth-grade teacher Aaron Level just missed the cutoff for additional support at Wright Elementary School, but he’s staying positive.

                He might have to high step over chairs in cramped aisles, spend extra time grading papers and get creative about reaching 34 students, he said, but he loves his job.

                Plus parents stepped up, he said, supplying at least one volunteer every day. He knows he likely will do fewer projects, and he needs to work harder to make a difference for each kid.


                Large class sizes aren’t relegated to elementary schools. Area high schools welcomed 500 more students than projected this fall.

                North Salem High School had classes of 43 students taking 20th Century Studies. School officials added another class, but that only brought the total down to between 37 and 39 students.

                “They’re still really full,” said Vice Principal Rolland Hayden.

                Despite the challenges, some see the larger numbers as an opportunity, including a group of friends in Aaron Level’s fifth-grade class.

                The three girls agree that it’s tough to get to their cubbies when all 34 students wiggle into the space, but they like the overall vibe in the classroom.

                “It’s kind of fun,” said Sydney McCuistion. “You get to make a lot of friends.”

                Parents of students with special needs might not share the same optimism. One parent testified in front of the Salem-Keizer School Board urging members to lower class sizes.

                http://www.statesmanjournal.com/arti...-starts-bottom
                Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Privatize education and subsidize lower socio-economic zones with education vouchers. This is far cheaper than trying to operate and run a public education system hamstrung by union problems and bureaucracy. Most people praise Scandinavian/Nordic countries when citing the success of public education, OTOH the Netherlands and Sweden both have a voucher program which by all parameters is a roaring success. In the Netherlands two thirds of state funded schools operate autonomously/independently. In Sweden, for example you have a company that pioneers in "Knowledge Schools"

                  Private education: The Swedish model | The Economist

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                  • #39
                    Here is one teacher that should be looking for a new job soon.



                    Teacher Ridicules Student for Romney T-Shirt - Yahoo! Finance

                    Many Republicans can't help but wonder if a student wearing a pro-Obama T-Shirt in a Philadelphia school would have been subject to the kind of humiliation that Samantha Pawlucy was forced to endure.

                    The 16-year old sophomore, who attends Charles Carroll High School, told CNC's Larry Kudlow, that she was humiliated by a teacher for wearing a T-shirt in support of Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan.
                    She said the teacher compared her to the worst racists in history -- the Ku Klux Klan.
                    "It was really embarrassing, and I think she did it because she's against Mitt Romney," Samantha said.
                    "I was really nervous," she added, "and I was worried that after class, people were going to come up to me and say something."



                    Events unfolded last Friday. Nothing out of the ordinary happened until the student arrived at her geometry class -- before that time the shirt didn't raise any objections.
                    However, the offending teacher saw the Romney / Ryan shirt "and told me to get out of the classroom, I said no," Samantha explained on "The Kudlow Report." (Read More Below the Video.)

                    Philly Student Ridiculed Over Romney T-Shirt
                    Samantha Pawlucy, a 16-year-old student in Philadelphia says that a teacher ridiculed her for wearing a Mitt Romney t-shirt in class. CNBC's Larry Kudlow weighs in.
                    When she stood her ground and refused to change, Samantha said the teacher pulled her into the hall and encouraged others to make fun of her. And according to news reports, the teacher attempted to scribble on the shirt.
                    [More From CNBC: Romney on '47 Percent': I Was 'Completely Wrong']
                    Samantha also admitted to Kudlow that she was so embarrassed by what happened she hasn't returned to class. "I don't want to be threatened and I want the teacher to be fired."
                    Samantha's father Richard Pawlucy is beside himself. He told Larry Kudlow that he wouldn't tolerate his daughter being bullied by anybody let alone a teacher.
                    [More From CNBC: Job Growth Rises as Rate Drops to 7.8 Percent]
                    Although they've met with school officials about the incident, neither Samantha nor her father are satisfied. "The teacher told us it was a joke. That she jokes around with students. There's nothing funny about what she did."
                    The school district confirmed to CNBC that an incident occurred and it is conducting an investigation to determine whether disciplinary action is necessary.
                    Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Abolish public education. Send your kids to whichever school that you agree with. It's your money. Spend it how you like.

                      Got a problem with a problem employee? What do we do in the private sector? Talk to the manager and then not patronize the store again. Vote with your pocket book.

                      Government run services are monopolies at their worst. True monopolies do not exist in a free market system. True monopolies exist in the form of government, in every system.
                      "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                      • #41
                        I must say one thing we cannot come to a single conclusion at this debate, why don't gov give every body choice individually. :P

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Here is a reason against Public Sector unions.

                          A few things in the article that caught my eye.

                          In Rhode Island, 58 percent of retired teachers and 48 percent of state retirees receive more in their pensions than in their final years of work.
                          I could see this if they were in an investment plan, and they made good investment decisions, but for a typical defined benefit plan this is crazy.

                          North Providence retiree Jamie Reilly left her job as a secretary at age 50, thinking her 30 years of state employment would mean good benefits during her later years. But now she said she may be forced to re-enter the workforce at age 55 because the state has put off pension increases.
                          50 is not your "Later years"

                          Before Rhode Island's reforms passed in November, its pension costs were set to jump from $319 million in 2011 to $765 million in 2015 and $1.3 billion in 2028. The state's annual budget is $7 billion.
                          Do the roads get paved in that State? How much do you tax the hard working Joe that dreams of retiring at 67 to pay 50 yr old's retirement?

                          $1.4 trillion in pension fights foreshadowed in RI - Yahoo! News
                          Last edited by Gun Grape; 12 Oct 12,, 01:05.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                            Here is a reason against Public Sector unions.

                            A few things in the article that caught my eye.



                            I could see this if they were in an investment plan, and they made good investment decisions, but for a typical defined benefit plan this is crazy.



                            50 is not your "Later years"



                            Do the roads get paved in that State? How much do you tax the hard working Joe that dreams of retiring at 67 to pay 50 yr old's retirement?

                            $1.4 trillion in pension fights foreshadowed in RI - Yahoo! News
                            Like I said, welcome to California.

                            Our cops and firefighters can retire at 50, earning a max pension of 90% of their final year's pay, overtime included in this calculation, after 30 years of service. Many cops and firefighters retire making more money than the highest salary they have ever received while on duty. They then take another job, either with a different agency or in the private sector, making another salary.

                            Many government employees retire at 55 and then work the same job at the same agency, as a "consultant." They draw a pension and a salary at the same time. It's called "double dipping."

                            Our teachers can retire at 55, earning a max pension of 80% of their final year's pay, after 30 years of service. I'm not sure if overtime is included in this calculation.

                            Any shortfall in this pension system will be made up by the tax payers. We are already witnessing cities going bankrupt because of their unsustainable pensions.
                            Last edited by gunnut; 12 Oct 12,, 18:23.
                            "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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