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Why not public sector unions?... Chicago is a good example of why not to have them.

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  • Why not public sector unions?... Chicago is a good example of why not to have them.

    In the ever growing list of why public sector unions are bad for the nation I give you the Chicago teachers strike. Millions of kids and their parents thrown into chaos so teachers can avoid having to actually be able to teach said kids [performance reviews]. They want more monet and more benefits and don't want to have to actually perform their job... Meanwhile 40% of the students in the Chicago school district will drop or fail-out another large percentage won't know enough after graduation to avoid remedial classes in college.

    I have an idea, since the teachers want collective bargaining, lets do collective bonuses and penalties. 13 teachers K-12 are assigned a block of students. As each 12 year cycle maturates if less than 10% drop out we give them each a million dollar bonus, if more than 20% drop out they get charged with felony endangerment of a child with a minimum 12 years in prison with no chance of parole....

  • #2
    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    In the ever growing list of why public sector unions are bad for the nation I give you the Chicago teachers strike. Millions of kids and their parents thrown into chaos so teachers can avoid having to actually be able to teach said kids [performance reviews]. They want more monet and more benefits and don't want to have to actually perform their job... Meanwhile 40% of the students in the Chicago school district will drop or fail-out another large percentage won't know enough after graduation to avoid remedial classes in college.
    Welcome to Kommiefornia.

    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    I have an idea, since the teachers want collective bargaining, lets do collective bonuses and penalties. 13 teachers K-12 are assigned a block of students. As each 12 year cycle maturates if less than 10% drop out we give them each a million dollar bonus, if more than 20% drop out they get charged with felony endangerment of a child with a minimum 12 years in prison with no chance of parole....
    What? You mean hold a public employee accountable for his job performance? Surely you jest.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by gunnut View Post
      Welcome to Kommiefornia.



      What? You mean hold a public employee accountable for his job performance? Surely you jest.
      oh please....if it tracked student performance not class performance it wouldnt be an issue. The problem with class performance is it can be a tool to just eliminate tenured teachers or ones unpopular with management just give them low performing classes. Chicago has the choice as all do in a strike to replace the teachers. It happens when a union is unreasonable in the private sector and can in the public. I think they are edging out on a limb that may break but you would make it illegal to strike ....why....it's not like you believe in public education to begin with. how is a strike where workers are not getting paid and can legally be replaced communist???????
      Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.
      ~Ronald Reagan

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by zraver View Post
        In the ever growing list of why public sector unions are bad for the nation I give you the Chicago teachers strike. Millions of kids and their parents thrown into chaos so teachers can avoid having to actually be able to teach said kids [performance reviews]. They want more monet and more benefits and don't want to have to actually perform their job... Meanwhile 40% of the students in the Chicago school district will drop or fail-out another large percentage won't know enough after graduation to avoid remedial classes in college.

        I have an idea, since the teachers want collective bargaining, lets do collective bonuses and penalties. 13 teachers K-12 are assigned a block of students. As each 12 year cycle maturates if less than 10% drop out we give them each a million dollar bonus, if more than 20% drop out they get charged with felony endangerment of a child with a minimum 12 years in prison with no chance of parole....


        Z. You may wish to investigate the real reasons so many kids drop out and fail to learn. Quite often that is totally out of the teacher's hands. My high school had nearly a 20% drop out rate back in the 80's. Chicks got pregnant and the guys dropped out to work in the mill to support the new family. Others dropped out because "Daddy only had a third grade edumication so why should I show him up?" Now you expect teachers to overcome all this in addition to drugs, gangs and a growing adolescent mentality that doesn't value education? When I was in school paddling was still used. Now if a teacher even raises his voice in the classroom he could have charges leveled. The point is that no teacher can overcome a system/environment/community where an education is not valued.

        On the other hand, If I get to hand pick my students, pick where I get to teach them, get all the required teaching supplies, total control of my classroom, and I get that cohort for all of elementary/Jr High/High school then your effen on. Prepare me a huge fat check.


        Schools are only as good as the communities they are in. If you want better results in schools it takes a whole lot more than what happens on campus.
        Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

        Comment


        • #5
          I loathe teachers unions but I loathe the standardized testing regime they are foced to operate under just as much. In that one particular area I agree with them 100%.

          -dale

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by bonehead View Post
            Z. You may wish to investigate the real reasons so many kids drop out and fail to learn. Quite often that is totally out of the teacher's hands. My high school had nearly a 20% drop out rate back in the 80's. Chicks got pregnant and the guys dropped out to work in the mill to support the new family. Others dropped out because "Daddy only had a third grade edumication so why should I show him up?" Now you expect teachers to overcome all this in addition to drugs, gangs and a growing adolescent mentality that doesn't value education? When I was in school paddling was still used. Now if a teacher even raises his voice in the classroom he could have charges leveled. The point is that no teacher can overcome a system/environment/community where an education is not valued.

            On the other hand, If I get to hand pick my students, pick where I get to teach them, get all the required teaching supplies, total control of my classroom, and I get that cohort for all of elementary/Jr High/High school then your effen on. Prepare me a huge fat check.


            Schools are only as good as the communities they are in. If you want better results in schools it takes a whole lot more than what happens on campus.
            Looking from a long distance, seems US had a better system in the 80s then now. Same here.

            Not sure about why, but here one of the issues is that the teachers have more administrative things to do then in the past. No computer or other helpful gadget helps, for now.

            On top of that teachers are evaluated at the end of the year by "external" tests, meaning the Ministry of education will place a test with XY questions and compare the grade of the student with the result of the test.
            Last edited by Doktor; 18 Sep 12,, 06:36.
            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

            Comment


            • #7
              If it's an illegal job action, then sanction the union financially and toss the officers in jail. That's exactly what happens when an airline union executes an illegal job action.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by bonehead View Post
                Z. You may wish to investigate the real reasons so many kids drop out and fail to learn. Quite often that is totally out of the teacher's hands. My high school had nearly a 20% drop out rate back in the 80's. Chicks got pregnant and the guys dropped out to work in the mill to support the new family. Others dropped out because "Daddy only had a third grade edumication so why should I show him up?" Now you expect teachers to overcome all this in addition to drugs, gangs and a growing adolescent mentality that doesn't value education? When I was in school paddling was still used. Now if a teacher even raises his voice in the classroom he could have charges leveled. The point is that no teacher can overcome a system/environment/community where an education is not valued.

                On the other hand, If I get to hand pick my students, pick where I get to teach them, get all the required teaching supplies, total control of my classroom, and I get that cohort for all of elementary/Jr High/High school then your effen on. Prepare me a huge fat check.


                Schools are only as good as the communities they are in. If you want better results in schools it takes a whole lot more than what happens on campus.
                Teachers take the job to teach-period full stop. If they are not teaching, under performing by every conceivable standard they should at least be fired. If parents failed as miserably as many teachers do they would lose their kids and face criminal sanction for abuse, neglect and failure to thrive. Teachers get more waking hours with the students during the week than parents do but face none of the repercussions for being total losers at mentoring, teaching and turning children in productive adults.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by zraver View Post
                  Teachers take the job to teach-period full stop. If they are not teaching, under performing by every conceivable standard they should at least be fired. If parents failed as miserably as many teachers do they would lose their kids and face criminal sanction for abuse, neglect and failure to thrive. Teachers get more waking hours with the students during the week than parents do but face none of the repercussions for being total losers at mentoring, teaching and turning children in productive adults.
                  Picking standards or a measuring stick to compare teachers is like finding a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. There are way too many variables. Like every profession there are outstanding ones some bad apples and a whole bunch that are in the middle of the scale. I whole heartedly agree that those who do not pull their weight or fail miserably should be shown the door. That especially applies to administrators.

                  At the moment many teachers are faced with a whole load of crap even before they begin to teach. Every year some self important yahoo from the head office, the state and even the president comes up with some garbage teachers have to change to or incorporate into the classroom. Its to the point where teachers really do not have any control of their own class room. They are stuck with too many kids. Some class rooms do not have enough desks for the students. Some kids are sharing books. Then there are the disruptive kids that "can't be kicked out". Throw in a few kids who don't speak English very well and the special needs kids who are in the class room because their parents want them mainstreamed even though these kids are way off the scale of normalcy. Mentoring? Some days you have like 3 minutes one on one time with each kid and if you say anything even off hand the parents do not agree with those parents want you fired. Lastly there is all the P.C. BS that goes on in schools.

                  I say bring back the 15 student classrooms and the teacher has some say about the subjects and how they are taught, and discipline including the right to kick students out indefinitely. If those kids prosper the teacher gets to stay. If not, you get a new teacher.
                  Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                    Looking from a long distance, seems US had a better system in the 80s then now. Same here.

                    Not sure about why, but here one of the issues is that the teachers have more administrative things to do then in the past. No computer or other helpful gadget helps, for now.

                    On top of that teachers are evaluated at the end of the year by "external" tests, meaning the Ministry of education will place a test with XY questions and compare the grade of the student with the result of the test.
                    The system in the 80's and what is current are two different animals. No question.
                    Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by bonehead View Post
                      I say bring back the 15 student classrooms
                      I say I don't want to pay for that.

                      -dale

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dalem View Post
                        I say I don't want to pay for that.

                        -dale
                        Is there an educational format you would empty your pockets for?
                        Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by bonehead View Post
                          Picking standards or a measuring stick to compare teachers is like finding a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. There are way too many variables. Like every profession there are outstanding ones some bad apples and a whole bunch that are in the middle of the scale. I whole heartedly agree that those who do not pull their weight or fail miserably should be shown the door. That especially applies to administrators.

                          At the moment many teachers are faced with a whole load of crap even before they begin to teach. Every year some self important yahoo from the head office, the state and even the president comes up with some garbage teachers have to change to or incorporate into the classroom. Its to the point where teachers really do not have any control of their own class room. They are stuck with too many kids. Some class rooms do not have enough desks for the students. Some kids are sharing books. Then there are the disruptive kids that "can't be kicked out". Throw in a few kids who don't speak English very well and the special needs kids who are in the class room because their parents want them mainstreamed even though these kids are way off the scale of normalcy. Mentoring? Some days you have like 3 minutes one on one time with each kid and if you say anything even off hand the parents do not agree with those parents want you fired. Lastly there is all the P.C. BS that goes on in schools.

                          I say bring back the 15 student classrooms and the teacher has some say about the subjects and how they are taught, and discipline including the right to kick students out indefinitely. If those kids prosper the teacher gets to stay. If not, you get a new teacher.
                          Overall class size does not matter nearly as much as teacher unions want us to believe, we could double class sizes and get rid of half the teachers and get better results if the goal was actually teaching the kids. We now have some of the smallest class sizes in modern history and spend more money per student than anyone and have some of the highest paid teachers in the world and our system is an abject failure. You want to fix schools, separate the girls and the boys and teach to the sexes. Girls learn differently than boys so the method of delivery needs to differ. Then when the kids enter their middle teen years offer them a choice a technical or vocational pathway instead of shoving college for all down their throats. Tutoring also needs to be available. Even the best teacher will get much better results if competent tutoring is offered.

                          Oh, and shit can the losers who are only teaching cause its a good paycheck with decent benefits and summers off.

                          BTW I have no problem at all with making PTA meetings mandatory and putting cameras in the class room so Mom and Dad can see what Jr and Princess are up to.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by bonehead View Post
                            Is there an educational format you would empty your pockets for?
                            Empty my pockets for? No.

                            -dale

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              If you can't separate the sexes, then make school uniforms mandatory. The amount of angst wasted over clothes is staggering. Make cell phones illegal. They go into locked lockboxes at the start of the school day. No iPods. No electronics of any sort except for laptops, using a heavily-filtered WiFi connection.

                              Get rid of all the distractions, and kids will learn.

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