2012 Presidential Election - The Ups and Downs

[astralis]

JAD,

I think your view of the situation fails to take into account the fact that we're finally broke after 70 years of social engineering

how different the view was back in 2000, when bush advocated his, ah, temporary tax cuts to eliminate dangerous surpluses...;)

[JAD_333]

JAD,



how different the view was back in 2000, when bush advocated his, ah, temporary tax cuts to eliminate dangerous surpluses...;)

Asty:

This brings to mind a basic truth. Political leaders don't act with the deep future in mind, and never have, unless, of course, the public is disturbed about some dire prediction, such as global warming or over-population...etc.

In that sense, politics is our worst enemy. We have a body of leaders more concerned with staying power, which means their focus will be immediate problems--1-4-10-20 years out--not problems people may face in the next century or thereafter. The obvious fact that our finite natural resources cannot sustain growing world demand indefinitely seems not to enter into their thought process, at least not in the form of concrete measures. Gotta get that economy pumped up; gotta be the best in the world...

Well, maybe by the next century man will be mining asteroids and whizzing around in cars powered by fusion. Or, maybe he'll have discovered that the ancient sages were right all along: Happiness is a state of mind, not a byproduct of material accumulation. So, I'm going to jump in my entirely satisfying Toyota Tacoma and go earn some money so I can pay for my I-Phone, ISP, and 500 channels of near useless satellite TV, some good wine, a filet mignon, and some fresh veggies, and enjoy the day. Who knows. It may be my last. :)

[bonehead]

Asty:

This brings to mind a basic truth. Political leaders don't act with the deep future in mind, and never have, unless, of course, the public is disturbed about some dire prediction, such as global warming or over-population...etc.

In that sense, politics is our worst enemy. We have a body of leaders more concerned with staying power, which means their focus will be immediate problems--1-4-10-20 years out--not problems people may face in the next century or thereafter. The obvious fact that our finite natural resources cannot sustain growing world demand indefinitely seems not to enter into their thought process, at least not in the form of concrete measures. Gotta get that economy pumped up; gotta be the best in the world...

Business works in much of the same way.

[JAD_333]

Romney Responds to Obama's Bain Attacks

Romney was bound to respond. The only question was how. He chose the indignation route by demanding an apology. He could have chosen to belittle the ads by saying Obama was playing a shell game to distract Americans, or dismissed them with Lincolnesque humor. Anger throws fuel on the fire. Humor might have been better.

Romney Seeks Obama Apology for Bain Attacks
By MICHAEL D. SHEAR
Published: July 13, 2012


WASHINGTON — Mitt Romney demanded an apology from President Obama on Friday for making what he called “reckless” and “absurd” allegations in an escalating battle over whether Mr. Romney’s business record included outsourcing American jobs.

After days in which the Obama campaign persistently goaded Mr. Romney and even raised questions about whether he might have broken the law by lying on a Securities and Exchange Commission filing, Mr. Romney finally hit back hard, giving five television interviews in which he said the attacks on him were “beneath the dignity of the presidency.”

“What kind of a president would have a campaign that says something like that about the nominee of another party?” Mr. Romney said to CBS News. In an interview with ABC News, he added: “He sure as heck ought to say that he’s sorry for the kinds of attacks that are coming from his team.”

Mr. Obama showed no signs of backing down, and while avoiding the more provocative language used by some of his aides, said Mr. Romney should answer lingering questions about what his role was at Bain Capital, a private equity firm.

“I think most Americans figure if you are the chairman, C.E.O. and president of a company that you are responsible for what that company does,” Mr. Obama said on WJLA-TV in northern Virginia earlier in the day. “Ultimately, Mr. Romney, I think, is going to have to answer those questions.”

The back and forth between the rivals for the presidency capped one of the most intense 48-hour periods of the 2012 campaign, with each side angrily accusing the other of outright lies and distortions as the election became a matchup of war-room tactics far removed from the big issues of the day.

While Mr. Romney has sought to keep public attention on the weak economy, Mr. Obama’s team spent the week trying to focus the campaign on undermining Mr. Romney’s claim to being an effective economic manager by highlighting reports that Bain Capital had invested in companies that moved jobs overseas. That battle in turn descended into a brawl over Mr. Romney’s position that he had already left Bain during the period in question, starting in 1999.

Mr. Romney reiterated on Friday that he had no role in running Bain after early 1999, when he left to take over management of the Salt Lake City Olympic Games. The Boston Globe reported Thursday on S.E.C. documents listing Mr. Romney as chief executive of Bain through 2002, a period in which Mr. Romney has said he was negotiating his formal departure from the company but was not involved in its management or investment decisions.

“I was the owner of an entity which was a management entity,” Mr. Romney said on CBS, calling the questions about Bain the “height of silliness” to be having. “That entity was one which I had ownership of until the time of the retirement program was put in place. But I had no responsibility whatsoever after February of ’99 for the management or ownership — management, rather, of Bain Capital.”

Though he hit back hard at the president on Friday, Mr. Romney’s willingness to plunge fully into the fray over the issue was a victory for Mr. Obama in the sense that the campaign spent another day being fought on the Obama campaign’s choice of turf. As Mr. Romney himself said in an interview this week on Fox News, “If you’re responding, you’re losing.”

Mr. Romney used the television interviews on Friday to try to shift attention back to the economy.

“You just had very bad news on the economic front, with now 41 straight months with unemployment above 8 percent,” he told Fox News. “And what does the president do? He says he is going to raise taxes on people. He is trying to gut welfare reform as we know it. And he launches attacks of this nature. Well, it is just beneath the dignity of his office.”

But with the Obama forces apparently fully committed to portraying him as out of touch with the middle class and secretive about his wealth, Mr. Romney faced continuing questions about his willingness to disclose more information about his personal finances. He responded that he does not intend to disclose much more than he already has.

Mr. Romney said he had released his 2010 tax return and would release his full 2011 tax return when it was ready. But he said voters should not expect any more than that, despite Democrats’ calls for him to release a decade’s worth of returns or more, citing the example of his father, George Romney, who when he ran for the Republican presidential nomination in 1968 released 12 years of returns.

“I know there will always be calls for more. People always want to get more,” Mr. Romney said on CNN. “And, you know, we’re putting out what is required plus more that is not required. And those are the two years that people are going to have. And that’s — that’s all that’s necessary for people to understand something about my finances.”

Mr. Obama is running millions of dollars in television ads calling on Mr. Romney to reveal more about his personal taxes, offshore bank accounts and investment accounts, and linking him to the investments made at Bain between 1999 and 2001, when Mr. Romney says he was no longer at the company. On Thursday, the president’s aides said Mr. Romney was either lying on federal documents or to the American people.

That allegation, in particular, has clearly angered Mr. Romney. He called the accusation of criminal behavior “disgusting” and “demeaning” and said it was destructive to the political process.

“It’s something that I think the president should take responsibility for and stop it,” Mr. Romney said. “Is this the level that the Obama campaign is willing to stoop to?”

Mr. Romney’s rare appearances on five networks on Friday attested to his campaign’s desire to respond to the president’s charges. But the media blitz also highlighted how he is being outgunned at the moment in the advertising wars, where Mr. Obama’s campaign is greatly outspending his in the states that will decide the election.

Mr. Romney has outraised Mr. Obama in the last several months, but most of the money he has raised can be used only in the general election, which formally begins after the Republican National Convention this summer. The long, contentious Republican primary campaign drained much of the money Mr. Romney could spend before then.

That has left Mr. Romney somewhat short of cash, though the campaign is broadcasting advertisements this week slamming Mr. Obama for misleading attacks.

By giving interviews to all the major networks, Mr. Romney is likely to ensure that clips will be replayed all weekend. And what he says is likely to be the subject of conversation during the Sunday morning news programs.

Mr. Romney’s campaign has produced television ads this week charging Mr. Obama with running a dishonest campaign and using clips of Hillary Rodham Clinton, the secretary of state, angrily denouncing Mr. Obama during the 2008 Democratic primaries for lying about her record.

“So shame on you, Barack Obama,” the ad says.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/14/us...nted=2&_r=1&hp

[dalem]

Romney Responds to Obama's Bain Attacks

Romney was bound to respond. The only question was how. He chose the indignation route by demanding an apology. He could have chosen to belittle the ads by saying Obama was playing a shell game to distract Americans, or dismissed them with Lincolnesque humor. Anger throws fuel on the fire. Humor might have been better.

We might see all options. Since this line is all Obama seems to have we'll hear a lot of the same all summer. Romney will have plenty of chances to respond.

-dale

[dalem]

I keep forgetting that Obama's not a socialist:

Obama channels Elizabeth Warren « Hot Air

They know they didn’t — look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own.

So he wants to "spread the wealth around", he feels that at some point, "you've made enough money", he loathes capitalism and he minimizes individual achievement in favor of some sort of collective effort, but he's not a socialist, right?

Right?

-dale

[Doktor]

Maybe he admits he didn't make it on his own.

So how could the others?

[dalem]

Maybe he admits he didn't make it on his own.

So how could the others?

How does he know? What gives him the right to challenge people's path to success? And even his posit if true, so what? If people can't succeed wholly on their own then neither can they fail wholly on their own. When Sumdood knifes Carlos on the corner minding his own business, do I have to serve a month of his sentence? Or is Sumdood expected to suffer all of the consequences himself?

Of course the reason he's doing it is because he wants to raise tax rates for those making over $250,000: how dare they think their money is really theirs in the first place?

-dale

[astralis]

dale,

Of course the reason he's doing it is because he wants to raise tax rates for those making over $250,000: how dare they think their money is really theirs in the first place?

at which point in time does raising tax rates become socialist? clinton (yeah yeah, i know...) did what obama has not-- raising taxes on the wealthy-- does that make him a socialist?

would you have been more comfortable had obama advocated raising taxes equally across the spectrum?

[dalem]

dale,

at which point in time does raising tax rates become socialist?

When it's done on the basis of the "class warfare" crap that Obama espouses - the really bad side of populism.

IE, would you have been more comfortable had obama advocated raising taxes equally across the spectrum?

Yes. As I've stated here before many times I'm ideologically opposed to raising tax rates at all, but if part of the cure for the debt hole we're in is higher tax rates then raise them for everyone.

-dale

[astralis]

dale,

i'll answer this from bottom-up, so to speak.

Yes. As I've stated here before many times I'm ideologically opposed to raising tax rates at all, but if part of the cure for the debt hole we're in is higher tax rates then raise them for everyone.

that's fair enough, and rather better/more realistic than what most conservative leadership is willing to grant. in fact, i also believe that any long-term cure for the debt cure will involve sacrifices by all.

HOWEVER,

When it's done on the basis of the "class warfare" crap that Obama espouses - the really bad side of populism.

it's also clear that over time, the wealthy have shouldered less and less of the burden when measured by tax rate.

moreover, in any debt deal, the social safety net will certainly be cut back, which will also affect the lower/middle class significantly more than the wealthy. so any proportional increase in tax rate would be a double whammy; a cutback in services that primarily affects the poor/middle class, plus tax rate increases.

i'm also not particularly impressed with the populist talk which obama has espoused, but then again, neither am i impressed with the 'job creator' label that republicans like to use in lieu of 'wealthy'. both are meant to obscure the real need for sacrifice by all.

[Doktor]

Has anyone at any point of time brought this scale tax thing in front of SCOTUS?

If everyone is equal, how can they be taxed different?

[Gun Grape]

Romney Responds to Obama's Bain Attacks

Romney was bound to respond. The only question was how. He chose the indignation route by demanding an apology. He could have chosen to belittle the ads by saying Obama was playing a shell game to distract Americans, or dismissed them with Lincolnesque humor. Anger throws fuel on the fire. Humor might have been better.

He is whining.

Hasn't he figured out that hes in the big league now? The gloves come off and people don't treat you "Fair".

Not presenting image that I want the leader of the Free World to have.

“What kind of a president would have a campaign that says something like that about the nominee of another party?” Mr. Romney said to CBS News.

Here let me answer that question. The type of President thats in it to WIN reelection. How about you pull up your Big Girl panties and get in the fight

In an interview with ABC News, he added: “He sure as heck ought to say that he’s sorry for the kinds of attacks that are coming from his team.”

Want some cheese with that Whine?

This is the best we could get to run against Obama? Reelection is almost guaranteed.

[dalem]

it's also clear that over time, the wealthy have shouldered less and less of the burden when measured by tax rate.

Stipulating that that is true, "the wealthy"'s share is still quite high.

moreover, in any debt deal, the social safety net will certainly be cut back, which will also affect the lower/middle class significantly more than the wealthy. so any proportional increase in tax rate would be a double whammy; a cutback in services that primarily affects the poor/middle class, plus tax rate increases.

Again I'll stipulate that this is true without checking.

i'm also not particularly impressed with the populist talk which obama has espoused, but then again, neither am i impressed with the 'job creator' label that republicans like to use in lieu of 'wealthy'. both are meant to obscure the real need for sacrifice by all.

So why not turn all this populist rhetoric (which perhaps we both loathe equally, if perhaps for different reasons) into a surge for a modified flat income tax? Use the Dale Method. :) It's not difficult. :)

-dale

[dalem]

He is whining.

Hasn't he figured out that hes in the big league now? The gloves come off and people don't treat you "Fair".

Not presenting image that I want the leader of the Free World to have.



Here let me answer that question. The type of President thats in it to WIN reelection. How about you pull up your Big Girl panties and get in the fight




Want some cheese with that Whine?

This is the best we could get to run against Obama? Reelection is almost guaranteed.

Gotta see it from the other direction. He HAS to respond with indignity and "I can't believe you'd do that" - otherwise the base will whine that he's weak and passive. The other guy calls you a felon, which is NOT common in modern presidential campaigns, you register your disappointment, then bring in the big guns.

As far as I know, Obama's the first ADMITTED criminal to seek to maintain the office - he smoked all that dope and maybe even did all that blow, according to him. Possession of a class 3 narcotic is a felony, the last I was told by my coke-snorting friends.

Romney is in this to WIN, unlike McCain. I still predict a 40 state blowout in November.

-dale