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2012 Presidential Election - The Ups and Downs

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  • Originally posted by Roosveltrepub View Post
    Yeah those germans are hurting.................... Not for nothing but they blow our doors off in e ery catagory
    Except birthrate. :)

    -dale

    Comment


    • Originally posted by McFire View Post
      I have always studied the candidates and the issues and voted for the ones I thought would do a better job....... Once we oust Barry/Barrack, I will look at the candidates who are not (R) or (D).
      Hard to do, who apart from the R or D party candidates is going to be able raise the funds needed for a run at the presidency and have even a remote chance of success?
      If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

      Comment


      • OK, this is going to hurt Mitt. Even if the clear implication of his statement was true (and it isn't), saying that you are effectively writing off what amounts to the poorest 47% of the population in front of a room of rich people plays so perfectly into the narrative of the Obama campaign that you would almost assume it was faked if there wasn't video. Should play well with retirees in Florida & working class voters in Ohio among others.

        Not only will this give Obama a ton more talking points & some nice ammo for the debate, it means Romney has to spend yet more time explaining his comments rather than his policies. It has already unleashed a number of articles pulling apart his claims, which means more defense. I heard someone point out tonight that while Obama has often been able to talk his way out of gaffes, Mitt really sucks at it. Based on an early response I heard tonight that is 100% on track - he stumbled & fumbled & just sounded terrible.

        When Mitt Romney at a private fundraiser dismissed all Barack Obama voters as moochers and victims—showing disdain for nearly half of the American electorate—he was speaking at the home of controversial private equity manager Marc Leder in Boca Raton on May 17, 2012. (It was Romney's second fundraising event in Boca that day.) This is evident from references made by Romney within the full video recording of the event that has been reviewed by Mother Jones.

        When Mother Jones first disclosed secret video of Romney's remarks, we were obliged to not reveal details regarding the time and place of the event. That restriction has been lifted, as the story has garnered attention throughout the media.

        At the fundraiser, Romney was asked how he could win in November, and he replied:

        "There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. That that's an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what…These are people who pay no income tax…[M]y job is is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives."

        Romney made those remarks before donors who had paid $50,000 a plate to attend the dinner at Leder's swanky house.
        Romney "47 Percent" Fundraiser Host: Hedge Fund Manager Who Likes Sex Parties | Mother Jones

        One of the big problems here is that the statement that almost half ther population feels 'entitled' and is mooching off the other half of the population doesn't stand up to even the mildest scrutiny.

        According to the non-partisan Tax Policy Center, about 46% of Americans paid no income tax in 2011. However, nearly two-thirds of households that don't pay income tax pay payroll taxes. Of the people who don't pay income or payroll taxes, more than half are elderly. The center says more than one-third of those who don't pay income or payroll taxes have incomes of less than $20,000.
        So, virtually all of that 47% are either working for so little money they don't pay income tax or thay are retirees who probably feel they earned theirs already.

        Romney's 47 percent comment opens debate

        Even worse, it turns out a bunch of these folk actually paid a higher percentage of their income in tax than Romney. OUCH!

        For what it’s worth, this division of “makers” and “takers” isn’t true. Among the Americans who paid no federal income taxes in 2011, 61 percent paid payroll taxes — which means they have jobs and, when you account for both sides of the payroll tax, they paid 15.3 percent of their income in taxes, which is higher than the 13.9 percent that Romney paid. Another 22 percent were elderly.

        So 83 percent of those not paying federal income taxes are either working and paying payroll taxes or they’re elderly and Romney is promising to protect their benefits because they’ve earned them. The remainder, by and large, aren’t paying federal income or payroll taxes because they’re unemployed. But that’s a small fraction of the country.
        And the kicker - here's why so many people don't pay income taxes - the GOP:

        Part of the reason so many Americans don’t pay federal income taxes is that Republicans have passed a series of very large tax cuts that wiped out the income-tax liability for many Americans. That’s why, when you look at graphs of the percent of Americans who don’t pay income taxes, you see huge jumps after Ronald Reagan’s 1986 tax reform and George W. Bush’s 2001 and 2003 tax cuts. So whenever you hear that half of Americans don’t pay federal income taxes, remember: Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush helped build that. (You also see a jump after the financial crisis begins in 2008, but we can expect that to be mostly temporary.)

        Some of those tax cuts for the poor were there to make the tax cuts for the rich more politically palatable. “Do you think we wanted to include a welfare payment to people who don’t pay taxes and call it a tax cut?” A top Bush administration official once asked me. “No. But that’s what we needed to do to get it done.”
        And finally, the sort of commentary remarks as foolish as Romney made opens the door for. Talk about an own goal:

        But now that those tax cuts have passed and many fewer Americans are paying federal income taxes and the rich are paying a much higher percentage of federal income taxes, Republicans are arguing that these Americans they have helped free from income taxes have become a dependent and destabilizing “taker” class who want to hike taxes on the rich in order to purchase more social services for themselves. The antidote, as you can see in both Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney’s policy platforms, is to further cut taxes on “job creators” while cutting the social services that these takers depend on. That way, you roll the takers out of what Ryan calls “the hammock” of government and you unleash the makers to create jobs and opportunities.

        So notice what happened here: Republicans have become outraged over the predictable effect of tax cuts they passed and are using that outrage as the justification for an agenda that further cuts taxes on the rich and pays for it by cutting social services for the non-rich.

        That’s why Romney’s theory here is more than merely impolitic. It’s actually core to his economic agenda.

        Romney’s theory of the “taker class,” and why it matters
        sigpic

        Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

        Comment


        • romney's numbers were already moving down before this flap across a number of issues-- this will most likely accelerate that trend.
          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

          Comment


          • Too much wishful thinking here. Remember 'clinging to god and guns'. Not to mention defining republicans as the enemy?
            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

            Leibniz

            Comment


            • pari,

              the problem for Romney is the overall context in which the campaigns worked. obama's pre-existing image was mr hope and change, which a lot of the populace bought into; moreover, the speech in which his 'clinging to gods and guns' quote appeared referenced his desire to even persuade those folks he condescended down towards .

              Romney, on the other hand, already had a bad reputation for little empathy, the efficient but cold boss whom hires or fires...and in this speech, he's seen as casually dismissing 47% of the populace as lost and as freeloaders anyway.

              so it reinforces an existing reputation. sure, Obama's 2008 gaffe reinforced his elitist image among conservatives, but in 2012 romney's image of being a...Romneybot (:))...extends across party lines and ideologies...and his gaffe just reinforced this further.
              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

              Comment


              • I think you're reaching, astralis.

                -dale

                Comment


                • well, we'll see; election is coming up soon enough...:) think some of our boys in afghanistan are going to be looking forward to dale's butter cookies!
                  There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                  Comment


                  • After having woken up (doing semi-overnights for the next couple of weeks) and absorbed the "news" about this, I remain unimpressed. I think these two statements, one about not being able to convince people to turn down their personal "magic money" spigots, and one about the fact that the Palestinians are orcs who are uninterested in peace with Israel, are simple truisms. Mining those two positions for insult is pretty weak tea.

                    Plus they will help him with conservatives.

                    -dale

                    Comment


                    • Hm.

                      Bounce over: Obama’s lead in Gallup tracker down to one — among registered voters « Hot Air

                      You guys are poll-savvy enough by now to know that samples of likely voters always skew a bit more Republican than samples of registereds, so what we’re looking at here is a de facto tie race at worst. Rasmussen has it 47/45 for Romney today; Gallup’s sample, screened for likelies, would probably be right in line with that.
                      Still feelin' pretty good about things, astralis. My day of mod-free posting is coming up. :)

                      -dale

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                        Too much wishful thinking here. Remember 'clinging to god and guns'. Not to mention defining republicans as the enemy?
                        Pari,

                        Obama made that comment during the primaries (April) and he had to work for months to overcome it. Romeny doesn't have months. As I also pointed out, Mitt sucks at defence. Both guys can talk themselves into trouble, Obama is much better at talking himself out of it.

                        This has also moved beyond just being a Liberal talking point. Even conservatives think this was dumb. This isn't a 'game changer' but it does do the work of the Obama campaign for them & provide yet another distraction at the pointy end of the race.

                        Bill Kristol weighs in. Not a Mitt fan, but even less an Obama one:

                        It's worth recalling that a good chunk of the 47 percent who don't pay income taxes are Romney supporters—especially of course seniors (who might well "believe they are entitled to heath care," a position Romney agrees with), as well as many lower-income Americans (including men and women serving in the military) who think conservative policies are better for the country even if they're not getting a tax cut under the Romney plan. So Romney seems to have contempt not just for the Democrats who oppose him, but for tens of millions who intend to vote for him.

                        It remains important for the country that Romney wins in November (unless he chooses to step down and we get the Ryan-Rubio ticket we deserve!). But that shouldn't blind us to the fact that Romney's comments, like those of Obama four years ago, are stupid and arrogant
                        A Note on Romney
                        sigpic

                        Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                          Pari,

                          Obama made that comment during the primaries (April) and he had to work for months to overcome it. Romeny doesn't have months. As I also pointed out, Mitt sucks at defence. Both guys can talk themselves into trouble, Obama is much better at talking himself out of it.

                          This has also moved beyond just being a Liberal talking point. Even conservatives think this was dumb. This isn't a 'game changer' but it does do the work of the Obama campaign for them & provide yet another distraction at the pointy end of the race.

                          Bill Kristol weighs in. Not a Mitt fan, but even less an Obama one:



                          A Note on Romney
                          As Dale pointed out, everything he said will sit well with conservatives.

                          The US is already polarised, undecided voters swing left anyways.
                          What will determine this election is those that can actually be bothered to vote. For the Dems to win, they need to energise their potential voters which they are absolutely failing to do. No amount of attacking Romney will make a difference and they've already played the hope and change angle and subsequently failed to deliver.

                          The Romneybot need merely remain on cruise control and avoid murdering a baby for him to sail home.
                          In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                          Leibniz

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                            As Dale pointed out, everything he said will sit well with conservatives.

                            The US is already polarised, undecided voters swing left anyways.
                            What will determine this election is those that can actually be bothered to vote. For the Dems to win, they need to energise their potential voters which they are absolutely failing to do. No amount of attacking Romney will make a difference and they've already played the hope and change angle and subsequently failed to deliver.

                            The Romneybot need merely remain on cruise control and avoid murdering a baby for him to sail home.
                            From what I've read, undecideds tend to break away from incumbents, independent of R or D. Maybe what I read was wrong though.

                            -dale

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by dalem View Post
                              From what I've read, undecideds tend to break away from incumbents, independent of R or D. Maybe what I read was wrong though.

                              -dale
                              I'm basing it on experience here rather than the States so I'm happy to be wrong.
                              In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                              Leibniz

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by dalem View Post
                                From what I've read, undecideds tend to break away from incumbents, independent of R or D. Maybe what I read was wrong though.

                                -dale

                                When polled about gay marriage, "most" Americans say they are okay with it...but when put to an actual vote in the voting booths, it is overwhelmingly rejected. I think the same thing is going on with Barry/Barrack. When folks are polled, they are nice about him (especially if they don't want to appear racist), but I think in November there will be an overwhelming NO from the voting booths.
                                "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

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