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  • gunnut,

    If Obama wants to fund some shovel-ready construction project, why not build a big fence at our southern border? That way we can gain physical control of the border and slow the flow of illegal immigrants, drugs, guns, and kidnapping victims.
    fences need border patrol, otherwise they are just annoying obstacles, not a real wall.

    best method for stopping this is to legalize cannabis, followed by investment in the mexican economy and education.

    eliminate the incentive, eliminate the crime.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    • Originally posted by Merlin View Post
      The drug cartels at the US Mexican border are changing into paramilitary terrorism with guerilla tactics including car bombs, grenades and roadside IED's.

      Mexico: The Next Iraq or Afghanistan?
      Becoming? They're already are! The 'Los Zetas' arm of the Gulf Cartel are mostly former Mexican Special Forces (Special Forces Airmobile Group, GAFE).

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_zetas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by astralis View Post
        gunnut,

        fences need border patrol, otherwise they are just annoying obstacles, not a real wall.

        best method for stopping this is to legalize cannabis, followed by investment in the mexican economy and education.

        eliminate the incentive, eliminate the crime.
        Agreed. But those are really long term fixes, and depend on the cooperation of the Mexican bureaucracy. In the short term, we should make it hard for the cartel to do business, be it with border fence, tighter control of the banking system, assistance to the Mexican authorities, or all of them at the same time. In the medium term, legalize pot.
        "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

        Comment


        • How difficult is it to close, fence up and patrol the US Mexican border?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Merlin View Post
            How difficult is it to close, fence up and patrol the US Mexican border?
            Very difficult, but not impossible.

            First of all, the border is long. Many parts are hard to get to and inhospitable.

            Then we will have to maintain it once the wall is up. People will want to dig holes in that wall. It will be a never ending task to patch it.

            Much like a Club lock for the car. It won't stop any thief who's determined, but it will stop those lazy ones. Serious drug runners and immigrant smugglers will still get through. But at least we can stop a good portion of the average smugglers.
            "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by gunnut View Post
              Very difficult, but not impossible.

              First of all, the border is long. Many parts are hard to get to and inhospitable.

              Then we will have to maintain it once the wall is up. People will want to dig holes in that wall. It will be a never ending task to patch it.

              Much like a Club lock for the car. It won't stop any thief who's determined, but it will stop those lazy ones. Serious drug runners and immigrant smugglers will still get through. But at least we can stop a good portion of the average smugglers.

              Best way to fence off unwanted people is by making it illegal to hire illegal immigrants, punishable with jail term and/or severe monetary penalties.

              No health insurance. Hospitals can throw out illegals. Or at least give emergency medicare, and then throw them in prisons. Ask them to build roads, bridges and other stuff to recoup hospitalization expenses.

              Any contract with illegals, only citizens and legal immigrants end of the contract should be valid. So if money is owed to illegal immigrant, he/she cannot enforce the contract and claim the money. But if the money is owed to citizen by the illegal, then local sheriff should have the authority for a shakedown.

              Illegal's children cannot avail public schools, libraries and other public services. No citizenship by birth for illegals children.

              No drivers licenses. No SSN.

              I am not against immigration. By all means get more immigrants than current levels and of all hues ie. educated, skilled trades, menial labor etc so as to keep your economy running. But there should be a method in madness. Govt should keep track of who's coming in.

              Comment


              • Let me show you how this won't work:

                Originally posted by indus creed View Post
                Best way to fence off unwanted people is by making it illegal to hire illegal immigrants, punishable with jail term and/or severe monetary penalties.
                Need political will to enforce it.

                Originally posted by indus creed View Post
                No health insurance. Hospitals can throw out illegals. Or at least give emergency medicare, and then throw them in prisons. Ask them to build roads, bridges and other stuff to recoup hospitalization expenses.
                RACIST!!! BIGOT!!!

                Originally posted by indus creed View Post
                Any contract with illegals, only citizens and legal immigrants end of the contract should be valid. So if money is owed to illegal immigrant, he/she cannot enforce the contract and claim the money. But if the money is owed to citizen by the illegal, then local sheriff should have the authority for a shakedown.
                RACIST!!! BIGOT!!!

                Originally posted by indus creed View Post
                Illegal's children cannot avail public schools, libraries and other public services. No citizenship by birth for illegals children.
                RACIST!!! BIGOT!!!

                Originally posted by indus creed View Post
                No drivers licenses. No SSN.
                RACIST!!! BIGOT!!!

                Originally posted by indus creed View Post
                I am not against immigration. By all means get more immigrants than current levels and of all hues ie. educated, skilled trades, menial labor etc so as to keep your economy running. But there should be a method in madness. Govt should keep track of who's coming in.
                XENOPHOBE!!!
                "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                Comment


                • Has been a few years since I have been to Umreeka.

                  But per my understanding, economic immigrants from south of US border have dropped significantly(since the downturn), in fact some of them are overflowing from US into Canada .

                  Looks like problem for US is more from illegals from the cartel trade.
                  Last edited by indus creed; 26 Mar 09,, 00:37.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by BenRoethig View Post
                    We don't need more cops battling over jurisdiction or infantry troops, what we need is 6th armed service to act as land based counterpart to the Coast Guard.
                    I concur... this organization could also take some responsibility for internal infrastructure and transportation security when needed, and like the Coast Guard would fall under DHS rather than DOD unless wartime conditions dictated otherwise. It would not replace CBP entirely in the law enforcement role, focusing mainly on physical security, but it would maintain close liaison with that agency, ICE, and the DOD armed forces as well as local law enforcement agencies.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                      Border patrol.
                      Like all civilian law enforcement agencies, they have jurisdictional issues, problems with manpower and funding, and have equipment issues. The border patrol cannot use M240 or M2 Machineguns or arm helicopters and does not have the command structure. Well equipped drug smugglers or moonlighting mexican army units do not respect cops with M4s. They would respect an armed "Border Guard" HUMVEE or UH-72 with a door gunner.

                      Originally posted by Merlin View Post
                      How difficult is it to close, fence up and patrol the US Mexican border?
                      Pretty easy. Not like its over 3000km and in the middle of the desert or anything.
                      F/A-18E/F Super Hornet: The Honda Accord of fighters.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by BenRoethig View Post
                        Like all civilian law enforcement agencies, they have jurisdictional issues, problems with manpower and funding, and have equipment issues. The border patrol cannot use M240 or M2 Machineguns or arm helicopters and does not have the command structure. Well equipped drug smugglers or moonlighting mexican army units do not respect cops with M4s. They would respect an armed "Border Guard" HUMVEE or UH-72 with a door gunner.
                        How about re-org the border patrol into the "border guard" as you say? But then Mexico will complain about "militarizing" the border...blah blah blah.

                        Originally posted by BenRoethig View Post
                        Pretty easy. Not like its over 3000km and in the middle of the desert or anything.
                        Hey are you being sarcastic?
                        "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Ali View Post
                          I live in Arkansas. I disagree with you.
                          Chief - it's not just Bush's fault. Plenty of presidents failed to enforce the border. Even if more illegal aliens were caught during Clinton's 8 years as opposed to Bush, both still failed to put it on lockdown like it should have been.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Merlin View Post
                            for now, it's more important to disrupt the cartels' access to profits and weapons than to fortify the border with soldiers. ...
                            This is friggin sad. How many more illegal aliens need to cross the border and shoot Americans before this guy realizes we are literally under attack by an invading country. Numbers are small, but the fact remains that Mexicans are coming into this country, and killing people. Eventually citizens down there are going to go fight the war themselves, and I bet at that time, Obama will act. and blame the American people for "acting hastily" or some bogus rebuttal reason.

                            Comment


                            • This is a very unusual admission by Clinton. It is admirable.

                              I don't think any previous US President admin would openly make this type of statement to a foreign government.

                              U.S. to blame for much of Mexico violence - Clinton

                              MEXICO CITY, March 25 (Reuters) - An "insatiable" appetite in the United States for illegal drugs is to blame for much of the violence ripping through Mexico, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said on Wednesday.

                              Clinton acknowledged the U.S. role in Mexico's vicious drug war as she arrived in Mexico for a two-day visit where she discussed U.S. plans to ramp up security on the border with President Felipe Calderon.

                              A surge in drug gang killings to 6,300 last year and fears the violence could seep over the border has put Mexico's drug war high on President Barack Obama's agenda, after years of Mexico feeling that Washington was neglecting a joint problem.

                              "Our insatiable demand for illegal drugs fuels the drug trade. Our inability to prevent weapons from being illegally smuggled across the border to arm these criminals causes the death of police officers, soldiers and civilians," Clinton told reporters during her flight to Mexico City.

                              "I feel very strongly we have a co-responsibility."

                              Clinton said the Obama administration strongly backed Mexico in its fight with the drug cartels and vowed the United States would try to speed up the transfer of drug-fighting equipment promised under a 2007 agreement.
                              ...
                              Last edited by Merlin; 26 Mar 09,, 03:59.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                                I heard on the radio today:

                                If Obama wants to fund some shovel-ready construction project, why not build a big fence at our southern border? That way we can gain physical control of the border and slow the flow of illegal immigrants, drugs, guns, and kidnapping victims.

                                Now that the federal government is in the banking business, why doesn't the congress tell the banks we own to stop accepting the Metricular Councilar cards as a valid form of ID? Mexican government passes that out to its migrants like candy and we make it easy for them to set up bank accounts to transfer and launder money.

                                Bush failed to protect our southern border. Let's hope for some change. We can do it. Yes we can.

                                Let's get serious here.
                                There must be some "hidden" reason that the border is not defended. I've tried to think of plausible reasons "OK, why would the government allow the border to remain open this long" and you can put together several reasons. I mean, maybe Bush felt China was such a huge threat, that he allowed illegals to enter, banking on using them as a cheap labor source if China ever fell through. Theories like that I've considered just because the failure to enforce the border is so absurd.

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