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  • Originally posted by ChrisF202 View Post
    Some towns in South Texas are basically part of Mexico ... there is one town that declared Spanish its official language and made it a crime to communicate with US Border Patrol or Immigration Enforcement agents and some other communities have similar rules.

    I really dont see what the problem here is ... this is our land and that is their land stay off our land unless your invited, its a very simple concept. Besides, good walls make good neighbors!
    Good God! I'm beside myself! I can't believe I haven't come across such news!
    "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."
    - Thomas Jefferson

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    • Originally posted by ChrisF202 View Post
      Some towns in South Texas are basically part of Mexico ... there is one town that declared Spanish its official language and made it a crime to communicate with US Border Patrol or Immigration Enforcement agents and some other communities have similar rules.
      I have really no idea about this one and it's really true that they have this rules?
      Last edited by xrough; 07 May 07,, 04:08.
      sigpic

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      • Originally posted by xrough View Post
        I have really no idea about this one and it's really true that they have this rules?
        Yup, Los Angeles also has a similar rule called Special Order 40 that prohibits LAPD officers from turning over illegal immigrants to ICE agents. NYC also has similar rules for the NYPD and I know we had a hands off policy in my county until the current sheriff came into office.

        I think I should go rob a bank today, afterall if the illegals dont have to follow the rules why should I? See the hypocrisy here?

        The name of the Texas town is El Cenizo, TX pop of 7,800. Texas Town Adopts Spanish As Official Language

        Both New Mexico and Puerto Rico have both English and Spanish as official languages.
        Last edited by ChrisF202; 07 May 07,, 13:25.

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        • US-Mexico 'virtual fence' ready

          US-Mexico 'virtual fence' ready


          A high-technology system to control the US-Mexico border with cameras and radar instead of a physical fence has gained government approval, US officials say.
          The $20m 'virtual fence' already covers 28 miles (48km) of the border between Arizona state and Mexico.

          The system has already helped catch smugglers, and would be deployed elsewhere, said US Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff.

          But he said plans to complete 770 miles (1,130km) of physical fence remain.

          "I have personally witnessed the value of this system," said Mr Chertoff.

          "I have spoken directly to the border patrol agents... who have seen it produce actual results in terms of identifying and allowing the apprehension of people who are illegally smuggling across the border."

          Unmanned towers

          Built by Boeing, the virtual fence is part of a strategy to stop illegal immigrants as well as drug-smugglers attempt to pass into the US on foot or in vehicles.

          Its technology - including 100-ft (30-metre) unmanned surveillance towers equipped with sophisticated sensor devices - is capable of distinguishing people from cattle at a distance of about 10 miles (16km).

          The system's cameras and radars are powerful enough to determine whether people are carrying backpacks that may contain weapons or drugs.

          The US government plans to extend the technology to other areas of the Arizona border, as well as sections of Texas, possibly within months.

          In a televised debate in Texas on Thursday, both Democratic party presidential candidates, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, said high-technology surveillance could lessen the need for a physical barrier.

          A highly charged political issue, immigration has been at the forefront of this year's presidential campaign.

          Plans for the physical barrier covering about a third of the US-Mexico border have drawn fierce criticism.
          sigpic

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          • I am not so sure this will have much of an effect. I personally feel that this is just another "feel good" measure by the politicians to get more votes. If they really wanted to do something about this they would go after the root cause: the greedy business owners who hire them.

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            • But he said plans to complete 770 miles (1,130km) of physical fence remain.
              Time to make it physical.
              God is a cruise missile.

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              • I agree, but it would be very costly and we still need to get at the root; the businesses that employ them.

                People do also tend to forget that its not just illegal immigrants; we also have tons of drug smugglers, rogue Mexican Army units, gangs/terrorists, etc crossing the border as well hence the need for a fortified barrier.

                My optimal solution:

                Step 1: Abolish the US Border Patrol and combine the old US Border Patrol along with the US Secret Service (uniformed and plainclothes branches), US Park Police, and the military police and CID branches to create a paramilitary federal constabulary similar to the French Gendarmerie, Italian Carabinieri, Spanish Guardia Civil, etc. This organization would number at least 200,000 and would be trained and equipped to perform both military and police functions.

                Step 2: Build some form of fortified barrier covering the ENTIRE length of the US/Mexico border from San Diego, CA to South Padre Island, TX manned by the previously mentioned Federal Constabulary.

                Step 3: Crack down on the businesses that employ and attract illegal immigrants. The claim that they are "just doing the jobs that Americans wont do" is total bunk, its just the some business owners are greedy and wont offer more then $5/hour or some abysmally low salary so thus only the illegals will take the job.

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                • I agree, but it would be very costly and we still need to get at the root; the businesses that employ them.
                  How the business gonna employ them if they cannot cross?

                  Money will always come if your ready to spend it for the right things or feel its important enough.


                  You can never get to the root. Business/Households are just playing the demand/supply market game. Might as well just wait till kingdom comes to get to the root or build the damn fence.

                  Any politician talking about things like need to solve the problem of the people already here are just taking the public for a ride. Most important thing is stopping more people. Then you can 'take care' of the people already here in a mutually agreed way.

                  Man only a politician can go winding about and create confusion about a straight thing like this. You got to marvel their skills at votebank politics.

                  btw just for the record who are the politicians spinning this yarn these elections?
                  Fred Thompson was definitely speaking along the terms of building the wall first and then next look into the issue people already here(not necessarily chuck them out). Sounded most reasonable.
                  Whats the take on the matter by McCain, Hillary & Obama?
                  God is a cruise missile.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ChrisF202 View Post
                    My optimal solution:

                    Step 2: Build some form of fortified barrier covering the ENTIRE length of the US/Mexico border from San Diego, CA to South Padre Island, TX manned by the previously mentioned Federal Constabulary.
                    Where will you get the people for this? I mean it sounds well and good but for your idea to work you need "Eyes on" 24/7. Or they will just re route border crossers to an area not under surveillance. Thats my experience from a JTF-6 tour.

                    The southern border is about 3140Km long. In Desert Storm, a US Division held a defensive line about 30Km long. This would be the minimum that you would need. More since units were not "tied in" and their were gaps in the lines that were covered by other means.

                    But using that as a baseline you need the equivalent of 105 Army Divisions manning the border at all times. So in reality you need to at least triple that number (3 X 8hr shifts) for 24/7 coverage or 315 Divisions worth.

                    For reference in WW2 the US Army fielded 91 divisions

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                    • I was seeing Fox News and it showed tunnels had been dug below the fence to smuggle drugs and illegals.

                      Some tunnels had lighting and airconditioning too!


                      "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                      I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                      HAKUNA MATATA

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                      • US to boost Mexico border defence

                        US to boost Mexico border defence

                        The US government is to increase security at the country's border with Mexico, in an attempt to combat drug cartels, the White House has announced.

                        The number of immigration, customs and anti-drug agents and gun law enforcement officers will be increased, officials said.

                        Some 8,000 people have died in Mexico over the past two years amid bitter turf wars between rival drugs gangs.

                        The south-west US has also seen rising violence and kidnappings.

                        Gun crackdown

                        Agents from the Department of Homeland Security, the Drug Enforcement Administration and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives (ATF) will be sent to the border to region to help deal with the issue.

                        Border Enforcement Security Task Forces (BEST) teams will be doubled and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) is to create special south-west intelligence group to coordinate all its efforts to tackle Mexican drug-related crime.

                        ATF is to send 100 agents to the border within 45 days to crack down on illegal gun transfers from the US into Mexico.

                        The plan will draw on $700m (475m) of funds already allocated by Congress to assist Mexico in its fight against the drug cartels.

                        Mexico's government will also receive five helicopters and a surveillance aircraft as part of the scheme.

                        Failed state warning

                        "I believe the Mexican government will not fail," said US Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano.

                        "And I believe our role is to assist in this battle because we have our own security interests in its success."

                        Earlier this year, a study by the US Department of Defence warned that Mexico was in danger of becoming a failed state because of the drug gangs.

                        Ms Napolitano said she had not ruled out sending National Guard troops to the border region, and said she would meet Texas Governor Rick Perry to discuss the possible deployment.

                        US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton will travel to Mexico on Wednesday for the first of a series of high-level meetings between the two governments.

                        President Barack Obama is also expected to visit Mexico in the coming weeks.

                        Gang-related violence claimed the lives of some 6,000 people in 2008 and so far this year more than 1,000 have been killed as gangs fight both one another for territory and the police and troops sent to tackle them.
                        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7961670.stm
                        "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

                        Comment


                        • This makes yet another serious conflict that the Bush Administration chose to ignore. And this one is right on our border. How much more is needed to prove that Administration's criminal negligence? Infuriates me. I recently read that the cartels are better armed than the Mexican Army.
                          Last edited by Ali; 24 Mar 09,, 21:33.

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                          • Originally posted by Ali View Post
                            This makes yet another serious conflict that the Bush Administration chose to ignore. And this one is right on our border. How much more is needed to prove that Administration's criminal negligence? Infuriates me. I recently read that the cartels are better armed than the Mexican Army.
                            Do you know who opposed the tightened security at our borders?
                            "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                            • This is what I recall..

                              Bush's plan increased the number of Border Patrol agents to 18,000 by the end of 2008 (level at time of plan was 12,000). In essence, the proposal Bush put forward was simply fulfilling existing law in the Intelligence Reform and Terrorist Prevention Act of 2004 which mandated a doubling of the size of the Border Patrol over five years. As a stopgap measure leading up to 2008, Bush suggested deploying a rotation of 6,000 National Guard troops as a temporary measure, commenting in his speech:

                              One way to help during this transition is to use the National Guard. So in coordination with governors, up to 6,000 guard members will be deployed to our southern border. The Border Patrol will remain in the lead. The guard will assist the Border Patrol by operating surveillance systems, analyzing intelligence, installing fences and vehicle barriers, building patrol roads, and providing training. Guard units will not be involved in direct law enforcement activities -- that duty will be done by the Border Patrol.

                              This initial commitment of guard members would last for a period of one year. After that, the number of guard forces will be reduced as new Border Patrol agents and new technologies come online. It is important for Americans to know that we have enough guard forces to win the war on terror, to respond to natural disasters, and to help secure our border.


                              To paraphrase Bruce Schneier, this idea is "border security theater" - a political proposal designed to grease the legislative skids in Congress, but one that will have little impact on border security, and even worse, is operationally flawed and quite likely to be a costly diversion from other border security priorities. Consider the following questions:

                              1. How are these Guardsmen going to be trained? Guarding and patrolling the border requires many types of specialized training: language skills, driving skills, legal knowledge, cultural training, etc. The Border Patrol currently spends about $160 million per year on training to develop and maintain its skilled workforce. Members of the National Guard have not been trained in many of these areas, nor will they immediately possess the skills needed to conduct the activities outlined in the speech - intelligence, surveillance - in a domestic context. Does it really make sense to train them, and then throw away all of this knowledge after a year?

                              2. Where are they going to live? Unlike with Border Patrol agents, the federal government will be responsibility for providing temporary housing for members of the National Guard deployed at the border. How much is this going to cost? (Although on the other hand, perhaps we've just found a use for the 11,000 FEMA trailers that are sitting in Hope, Arkansas).

                              3. Can they communicate with each other? Do the National Guard units and the Border Patrol have the same types of radios and other communications devices? If not, does that mean that this decision requires a massive new investment in equipment that will have short-term value?

                              4. How do the Border Patrol and National Guard work together? Can two very different organizations be integrated? What is going to be done to prevent organizational clashes between the National Guard and the Border Patrol? How will questions of decision-making and resource allocation be handled?

                              Overall, this proposal had all the marks of being costly and ineffective. And this analysis doesn't even cover the issue of the National Guard already being overstretched as a result of the war in Iraq and the Guard's disaster management responsibilities, which is also a concern.

                              In today's Austin Business Journal, Governor Perry praised President Obama's plan. The article is copied below. Lots of differences in these plans.

                              Texas Gov. Rick Perry praised the Obama administration on Tuesday after the president announced a $700 million initiative aimed at working with Mexican law enforcement to support security interests at the Southwest border.

                              The expenditure also will support efforts to beef up security at the U.S. Southwest border by increasing the efforts of the Drug Enforcement Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigations, the Office of Justice Programs and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

                              Obama’s administration said under the Merida Initiative, which is an agreement between the U.S. and Central American countries to crack down on drug trafficking, money laundering and other international crimes that debase security efforts, his administration will focus on combatting the upswing in violence in border town areas like Ciudad Juarez and Tijuana to curb the negative impact the crime is having on cities located on both sides of the border.

                              The spending also will focus on increased Mexican border security and training for law enforcement and judicial reform, as well as information technology aid to assist Mexican prosecutors, law enforcement agencies and immigration officials. In addition, the package includes initiatives aimed at supporting the implementation of a new legal system in Mexico that focuses on human rights and judicial justice.

                              Perry said he'd also like to see an increase in personnel. “Although we appreciate the additional investigative resources, what we really need are more border patrol agents and offices at the bridges to conduct increased northbound and southbound inspections, as well as additional funding for local law enforcement along the border to deny Mexican drug cartels access to the United States," he said.

                              Perry said he has asked the Obama administration for the deployment of 1,000 National Guard troops to aid law enforcement and border patrol agents.

                              The governor added that Texas is currently spending $110 million to secure the Texas-Mexico border. Perry has asked the Texas legislature for an additional $135 million to help the state with security efforts and to cut down on transnational gangs.


                              So, if you are trying to point the finger at Obama for NOT supporting Bush's "border security theatre" - all I can say is it was because Obama had a much much better plan.
                              Last edited by Ali; 24 Mar 09,, 22:17.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Ali View Post
                                So, if you are trying to point the finger at Obama for NOT supporting Bush's "border security theatre" - all I can say is it was because Obama had a much much better plan.
                                I never hinted Obama anything.

                                I asked a simple question as to if you know who was or were against tightened border security during the Bush years.
                                "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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