John Edwards - Stranger to reality

[TruthSpeak]

Did you catch this nifty quote from John Edwards on the campaign trail yesterday?

"Iraq is a mess .. .and it's a mess because of two people. George Bush and Dick Cheney. That's why it's a mess."

Interesting, isn't it? Now we know exactly why things aren't just hunky dory in Iraq. It's all because of George Bush and Dick Cheney. Nobody else ... just those two. In the process we have also learned from John Edwards why Iraq is not a mess:

Iraq is not a mess because:

* Of the net result of over 30 years of brutal totalitarian dictatorship under Saddam Hussein.
* Of the flow of Islamic terrorist mercenaries into Iraq from Syria, from Iran and from other Middle Eastern Islamic nations.
* Of the rapes and torture of tens of thousands of Iraqis over the past 30 years at the hands of Saddam Hussein and his wretched spawn.
* Kofi Annan was more interested in preserving the flow of money to his family members through the UN administered "Oil for Food" program than he was in demanding Saddam's compliance with UN Resolutions.
* Of the 257 mass graves filled with Iraqis who dared to cross their former dictator.
* Of Saddam's use of chemical weapons to kill tens of thousands of Iranians as well as his own countrymen.
* Of the negative consequences from Saddam's decision to invade and occupy Kuwait.
* Of 12 years of UN weakness and inaction and the continuing refusal by the UN to actually enforce any of its resolutions concerning Saddam Hussein and his weapons programs.
* Of the encouragement that Islamic insurgents and terrorists get from people like John Edwards claiming that Iraq is a mess not because of them, but because of the man he wishes to defeat and they wish to destroy.

Nah, none of those things made Iraq a mess....none of them...because its all Bush and Cheney's fault.

Edwards believes that Bush and Cheney did more to make Iraq than the man who ruled and murdered in Iraq for over 30 years. If you buy that then you deserve Kerry as your president. Come to think of it, a lot of you deserve John Kerry as your president. If I could figure out a way to do that without dragging the rest of America down with you I would be all for it.

[Ray]

Did you catch this nifty quote from John Edwards on the campaign trail yesterday?

"Iraq is a mess .. .and it's a mess because of two people. George Bush and Dick Cheney. That's why it's a mess."

Interesting, isn't it? Now we know exactly why things aren't just hunky dory in Iraq. It's all because of George Bush and Dick Cheney. Nobody else ... just those two. In the process we have also learned from John Edwards why Iraq is not a mess:

Iraq is not a mess because:

* Of the net result of over 30 years of brutal totalitarian dictatorship under Saddam Hussein.
* Of the flow of Islamic terrorist mercenaries into Iraq from Syria, from Iran and from other Middle Eastern Islamic nations.
* Of the rapes and torture of tens of thousands of Iraqis over the past 30 years at the hands of Saddam Hussein and his wretched spawn.
* Kofi Annan was more interested in preserving the flow of money to his family members through the UN administered "Oil for Food" program than he was in demanding Saddam's compliance with UN Resolutions.
* Of the 257 mass graves filled with Iraqis who dared to cross their former dictator.
* Of Saddam's use of chemical weapons to kill tens of thousands of Iranians as well as his own countrymen.
* Of the negative consequences from Saddam's decision to invade and occupy Kuwait.
* Of 12 years of UN weakness and inaction and the continuing refusal by the UN to actually enforce any of its resolutions concerning Saddam Hussein and his weapons programs.
* Of the encouragement that Islamic insurgents and terrorists get from people like John Edwards claiming that Iraq is a mess not because of them, but because of the man he wishes to defeat and they wish to destroy.

Nah, none of those things made Iraq a mess....none of them...because its all Bush and Cheney's fault.

Edwards believes that Bush and Cheney did more to make Iraq than the man who ruled and murdered in Iraq for over 30 years. If you buy that then you deserve Kerry as your president. Come to think of it, a lot of you deserve John Kerry as your president. If I could figure out a way to do that without dragging the rest of America down with you I would be all for it.

Not that Kerry or Edwards are my bosom friends, but looks who is posting this!

Iraq is a Mess. Any reason why it is not? Even if it is a Mess, the US is trying to ensure a decent form of life there. Therefore, while the Mess is true, but there is no let up in making it stable. That is what is important.

If it is daily killing of Americans, Iraqis or hostages being taken, it sure can't be Paradise or is it? I am a soldier. I understand their agony. Fighting without knowing when it will end and worse is that they ahve no role to play in deciding anything. Only the political hacks with their agenda have that right!

Get real. Also be bold enough to look at the silver lining without claiming that there is no black clouds!

Look no country is beyond human rights violations. OK Saddam was the worst. But you arguments are weak. Guantanamo Bay is human rights par excellence? It is worse since the US claims to be the shining star for human rights upholding.

I know that those there in Guantanamo are scoundrels. Let law take its course. I am sure that 90% would be booked as criminals and terrorists and of that there is no doubt. Vermins, they are. 10% can be errors. That can happen in any country.

What is happening now. Under pressure from the UK govt and to some extent the Paskitani govt, folks have been released. What does it say? It means that they should not have been locked up at all. What does that mean? It means the US is arbitrary and vindictive and shoring up statistics to impress.

Is that what we want?

I sure think Cheney has made the poor man Bush the fall guy.

Bush is a straight talking gent. Cheney has a machievellian mind with a yen for the dollar.

No. Some of them may not have yet been enlsited as AQ, but were in the process because they were in the AQ camps. Let it come out in the trials. everyone willbe satisfied.

Don;t be bigoted. Your type of post will turn away even those who are Bush fans.

[TruthSpeak]

Not that Kerry or Edwards are my bosom friends, but looks who is posting this!

Iraq is a Mess. Any reason why it is not? Even if it is a Mess, the US is trying to ensure a decent form of life there. Therefore, while the Mess is true, but there is no let up in making it stable. That is what is important.

Germany was a mess after WWII when we were liberating them. That liberation and rebuilding took 50 years.

Iraq has been in the post-war era for one year. we have lost a little over 1000 soldiers TOTAL. Its far from a mess. There is no such thing as microwave liberation, it takes time, money, and loss of life....read a history book.

If it is daily killing of Americans, Iraqis or hostages being taken, it sure can't be Paradise or is it? I am a soldier. I understand their agony. Fighting without knowing when it will end and worse is that they ahve no role to play in deciding anything. Only the political hacks with their agenda have that right!

What do you think war is??? If you are going to cry about it, then you shouldnt have signed up to get your free education. Damn, you are an embarrassment to real soldiers.

Get real. Also be bold enough to look at the silver lining without claiming that there is no black clouds!

I didnt claim there werent any black clouds...but you guys are making post after post about how the sky is falling and Iraq is going to internally combust at any second and all life will cease to exist, and its all Bush's fault.

Its getting pathetic.

Look no country is beyond human rights violations. OK Saddam was the worst. But you arguments are weak. Guantanamo Bay is human rights par excellence? It is worse since the US claims to be the shining star for human rights upholding.

Whats wrong at Guantanamo Bay?? I dont believe there are any rape rooms, gas chambers, or beheadings taking place...am I missing something?

[Officer of Engineers]

* Of the net result of over 30 years of brutal totalitarian dictatorship under Saddam Hussein.

Believe it or not, Saddam left an Iraq better than he found it.

* Of the flow of Islamic terrorist mercenaries into Iraq from Syria, from Iran and from other Middle Eastern Islamic nations.

What have we've been doing with the Kurds? The Basra Sunnis? And the Turkmen? We've been trying to incite them to over-throw Saddam for 12 years.

* Of the rapes and torture of tens of thousands of Iraqis over the past 30 years at the hands of Saddam Hussein and his wretched spawn.

As opposed to the unrestraint street violence of today?

* Kofi Annan was more interested in preserving the flow of money to his family members through the UN administered "Oil for Food" program than he was in demanding Saddam's compliance with UN Resolutions.

The Oil for Food Program was an American/British compromise. Annan had no say in its implementation nor its duration. That is strictly an UNSC decision - that is to say, strictly an American/British decision.

* Of the 257 mass graves filled with Iraqis who dared to cross their former dictator.

Look at the morgues today.

* Of Saddam's use of chemical weapons to kill tens of thousands of Iranians as well as his own countrymen.

War sucks, doesn't it? Why didn't we gone after the Iranians for their war crimes during the Iran-Iraq War?

* Of the negative consequences from Saddam's decision to invade and occupy Kuwait.

Of the negative consequences of not finishing the job 12 years earlier.

* Of 12 years of UN weakness and inaction and the continuing refusal by the UN to actually enforce any of its resolutions concerning Saddam Hussein and his weapons programs.

Again, that is strictly an American decision. The UN in its entire history never marched to war. Its member states (ie, the United States and its Allies) gone to war on behalf the UN. You cannot blame the UN for what the US refused to do.

* Of the encouragement that Islamic insurgents and terrorists get from people like John Edwards claiming that Iraq is a mess not because of them, but because of the man he wishes to defeat and they wish to destroy.

There is 144,000 American men and women in Iraq precisely because Iraq is a mess. Otherwise, they would be coming home.

Nah, none of those things made Iraq a mess....none of them...because its all Bush and Cheney's fault.

It is - for not having the proper foresight of the requirements of occupation and a clear and resolute exit strategy.

Edwards believes that Bush and Cheney did more to make Iraq than the man who ruled and murdered in Iraq for over 30 years. If you buy that then you deserve Kerry as your president. Come to think of it, a lot of you deserve John Kerry as your president. If I could figure out a way to do that without dragging the rest of America down with you I would be all for it.

Saddam was Iraq's mess to clean up. Now, Iraq is the US's mess to clean up.

[Officer of Engineers]

What do you think war is??? If you are going to cry about it, then you shouldnt have signed up to get your free education. Damn, you are an embarrassment to real soldiers.

JUST WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO TELL US ABOUT WAR?!?! THE BRIGADIER EARNED THE RIGHT TO SPEAK HIS VIEWS ABOUT WAR!

You don't know the facts. You assume things out of context. And you presume you know what it means to bleed? I know what the Brigadier is talking about. I know what it feels like to wanting to get the hell out of dodge. Your high and mighty ideals mean absolutely nothing when compared of handing the Flag to a grieving family.

Pride in their service does absolutely nothing to relieve the loss. The Brigadier lost people. I lost people. Don't you dare for one second tell us you know what that is like.

[Confed999]

What do you think war is??? If you are going to cry about it, then you shouldnt have signed up to get your free education. Damn, you are an embarrassment to real soldiers.

You obviously insulted more than one soldier with that one. Consider this your first warning.

[Ray]

What do you think war is??? If you are going to cry about it, then you shouldnt have signed up to get your free education. Damn, you are an embarrassment to real soldiers.

I have no hassle with what you have written.

Both my father and I were in the Army.

We are both decorated soldiers. He got a Military Cross after being blown up by a mine in Burma and I, a VSM, in Kargil and the equivalent to your Purple Heart. My father saw three wars and so did I; in addition my tenures in the Counter Insurgency Operations in Kashmir was commonplace events.

Hopefully, we are not an embarassment to sodiers or civilians.

War is a household word in my family.

You may not be aware, there was a CIA Intel Estimate given before the Iraq War (as reported by the BBC last night) stating that the situation will become exactly what it is now. That is why I thought the Govt should take a hard look before committing soldier to war.

I do not question the govt's decision be it my Govt or the US govt. As a soldier, I won't. They have more inputs than wht I can have. The BBC report of the Intel Estimate is just one cog. There could be something else too that tipped the balance in favour of war in Iraq.

If my post did exhibit some peevishness, it was because my heart bleeds, as a soldier, at the mounting toll of soldiers and civilians. Yes, it is fine to die (see my signature), but let's not be gleefully goading all to go and die, especially when sitting at home and not facing the flak. A temperate and controlled patriotism would be more appropriate.

I don't know if you have had military service and seen a war, but anyone who has seen war and seen his men die and he gets shot up himself, he doesn't mind what happens to him or his men for the cause of liberty, but what really irritates is the civilians in their AC houses with all the luxuries of life given to him by the society, go gung ho and more patriotic than soldiers who are dying! It's like a football match and the spectators expecting their home team to create miracles in the form of goals, when the boots given to the team are not up to the mark and the spectators are no match to the skill of the footballers with good boots or not.

Gitmo? Yes, those guys are terrorists. Book them. It should not be difficult; either by a military court or by civil court. They have done enough crimes. Throw the book, something will stick and stick like glue. Don't keep them hanging around without any transparent legal procedures going on. It gives an impression to all that these terrorists are just being held for the heck of it. I am sure that is not the case. What gives credence to the impression that some are being held for the heck of it is that some terrorsits from Gitmo are being freed without trial because of persuation from friendly govts. Some who went back to Afghanistan were freed!

Is the Iraq War wrong? A tough call actually, given the aftermath. The military operations was picture perfect, but the aftermath is awful. It should have been realised and thought through.To the best of my belief someone has blundered.

So what is to be done even if it is a blunder. Soldier on is the answer and mend fences with the international community. Let's be very clear, all are affected. The oil prices are $50 per barrel. In the US, it may not be material, but to developing countries, it is crippling. Therefore, it is the ideal time to to get them on board. Then quite a few US soldiers would be home and the brunt faced even out.

India was to give a Division ie 30,000+ troops. The Parliament put the spanner in the works since we have a huge Moslem population! It could imbalance the equation at home and we might have an Iraq on our hands. As it is they are running a riot (foreign sponsored) and we have our hands full.

More on hearing from you.

Sorry about this long post.

[TruthSpeak]

You obviously insulted more than one soldier with that one. Consider this your first warning.

I only offended those soldiers who seek free education instead of american security. I'm so sick of hearing soldiers on this board criticizing the Bush administration. He is the commander in chief...you're a volunteer. You do what you are told when your orders are within the law.

The real soldier is the soldier who understands why he is a soldier, gets the mission accomplished whether he likes it or not, and does so because he understands that he is a servent of the country he is fighting for. He understands he is part of the most important aspect of that country.

The real coward is the man who criticizes his lawful orders because his fear overwhelms his drive to serve. He views war as necessary when he isnt going to be in it, and unnecessary when he's trying to get a free education. He can find himself uninjured among the dead bodies of his fellow soldiers and consider HIMSELF a victim because selfishness is what got him into the military in the first place.

Any real soldier would agree.

[Ray]

Truthspeak,

Now I get it.

You require about quarter of a ounce more of brain in your thick numbskull to struggle to qualify as a dim wit.

You are the typical superficial peson. You dont even read where the person is from.

Next to my name it is written 'India'.

The OoE is a Canadian.

Perchance you may like to explain in your rather misconceived shooting the mouth without intelligence fashion as to why we have to take the US President as our Commander in Chief!

I have been in THREE wars which were NOT WALKOVERS, dodo. I was injured. But then I didn't care.

So, what is your grouse, twit?

When you confront logic you appear to be a bundle of nerves and you slip a whole lot of notches down into the realm of being a prize ignoramus! This manifests itself loud and clear in your posts.

In my country, you don't get free education for joining the Forces. So, Bone up before you catch a fly in your mouth.

The credo of our Army is what Lord Chetwode said:

The safety, honour and welfare of your country come first always and every time,
The honour, welfare and comfort of the men you command come next.
Your own ease, comfort and safety come last always and every time.

Further, it is time you just batten down when talking about military affairs from your couch, since your knowledge apparently is confined to the Rambo type of movies from that Box which bears your signature!

Real War is a whole lot different from the Idiot Box shows of Rambo and Jackie Chan. The Red stuff that you see oozing is not Ketchup. It is the Real stuff.

In the Bush Administration, Colin Powell was a soldier and a General. He was the least gung ho in going to war. Cheny was real gung ho and still is. The difference is that Colin Powell knows knows what is ACTUAL War, Cheney has seen it on the Idiot Box which munching popcorn. Cheney I learn has avoided the Vietnam War totally. At least, Bush was in the National Guard.

[Confed999]

Sorry about this long post.

Good post Ray...

[Officer of Engineers]

Well, Truthspeak, you don't know what a soldier is. The American soldier's oath is to the Consitution of the United States - NOT TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

Further more, the Uniform Code of Military Justice is EXTREMELY specific on what orders are legal and what orders are illegal AND that includes orders coming from the President of the United States.

It is the DUTY of every officer to examine his orders to see if they violate ANY of the Rules of Engagement to which the Judge Advocate General has deemed appropriate according to the CONSTITUTION of the United States, NOT the President of the United States.

None of which changes the fact that Bush Jr is a man, prone to mistakes, and he made some big ones in this war. I expect and DEMAND my officers both sub-ordinate and superior to me to be honest about their mistakes, admit their mistakes, explain their mistakes, and try to fix their mistakes. Fixing is sometimes impossible but the other parts are not.

George W Bush Jr may be a very good President but as a Commander-In-Chief, he is extremely lacking.

And btw, my Queen paid for my education, not you, and not the President of the United States.

You again know nothing about war, being a soldier, let alone being a leader. The Brigadier and I had lead men through fire. We've passed that leadership test. We know military leadership when we see it and we had not seen it. Pretend all you want, you don't know what we're talking about.

[TruthSpeak]

Well, Truthspeak, you don't know what a soldier is. The American soldier's oath is to the Consitution of the United States - NOT TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

The president is their commander dumbass. What do you think the commanders oath is? A soldiers oath is to follow their command.

Further more, the Uniform Code of Military Justice is EXTREMELY specific on what orders are legal and what orders are illegal AND that includes orders coming from the President of the United States.

This wasnt the discussion. you are lost.

Bush has not given any illegal orders.

It is the DUTY of every officer to examine his orders to see if they violate ANY of the Rules of Engagement to which the Judge Advocate General has deemed appropriate according to the CONSTITUTION of the United States, NOT the President of the United States.

Bush has not given any illegal orders. Therefore, the only choice an officer has is to follow those orders.

None of which changes the fact that Bush Jr is a man, prone to mistakes, and he made some big ones in this war. I expect and DEMAND my officers both sub-ordinate and superior to me to be honest about their mistakes, admit their mistakes, explain their mistakes, and try to fix their mistakes. Fixing is sometimes impossible but the other parts are not.

In your eyes he made mistakes.

In mine...he made only two.

1. not securing the borders.
2. his reluctance to tell cry babies who whine about the war every chance they get to go fuck off.

George W Bush Jr may be a very good President but as a Commander-In-Chief, he is extremely lacking.

But you cant say how.

You again know nothing about war, being a soldier, let alone being a leader. The Brigadier and I had lead men through fire. We've passed that leadership test. We know military leadership when we see it and we had not seen it. Pretend all you want, you don't know what we're talking about.

I know perfectly well. I know that a soldier who whines about carrying out legal orders is a coward.

[Confed999]

A soldiers oath is to follow their command.

Yep, right up until it goes against the rules of war.

Bush has not given any illegal orders.

He has never said Bush did. He was trying to explain that soldiers are not meant to be robots blindly following orders.

1. not securing the borders.
2. his reluctance to tell cry babies who whine about the war every chance they get to go fuck off.

(A very few of my additions, I have many more)
3. Nowhere near enough troops
4. Failure to confront the enemy and fight the war like a war
5. He didn't wait 15 days to add Canada to the coalition

But you cant say how.

Actually he has, several times before. Read more of his posts, learn from them, he is a highly experienced soldier.

I know perfectly well.

How many war zones have you been in?