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  • #16
    Attacking Kerry for his medals is like attacking the whole US system of giving medals and awards.

    I don't care if Kerry got them rightly or wrongly, but this type of an attack, to a military man like me, is blasted insulting to the system and the govt and to the People.

    It means that ALL MEDALS EVER GIVEN ARE FRAUDULENT. That is the most insulting crap I have heard.

    Am I to understand that ALL MEDALS given by the US are Fraudulent? Next time I meeet an American decorated soldier I will think he was just another bum who wormed his way to get a medal he did not deserve.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

    Comment


    • #17
      I don't care who wins the election in the US. Let the better man win.

      But, as a soldier and I don't agree with Sniper, I think a person who has braved bullets or seen a campaign is a much better military man than a person who flew planes in peacetime.

      Bush is a better bet for my country. But as a soldier, if I were to evaluate military service, it is Kerry who has seen military service while Bush was a chocolate cream soldier and Cheney, who defferred repeatedly is a woman in a man's form!


      "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

      I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

      HAKUNA MATATA

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Ray
        Attacking Kerry for his medals is like attacking the whole US system of giving medals and awards.

        I don't care if Kerry got them rightly or wrongly, but this type of an attack, to a military man like me, is blasted insulting to the system and the govt and to the People.

        It means that ALL MEDALS EVER GIVEN ARE FRAUDULENT. That is the most insulting crap I have heard.

        Am I to understand that ALL MEDALS given by the US are Fraudulent? Next time I meeet an American decorated soldier I will think he was just another bum who wormed his way to get a medal he did not deserve.
        Ray, it's not an all or nothing situation. A few bad apples don't ruin the whole basket. There are bad people everywhere. If it is true he got his medals fraudulently, then I want an investigation done to find out who and why.
        Originally posted by Ray
        Let the better man win.
        LOL :) I got this picture in my mind, of a dirt farmer in some crap town sitting down to a late dinner and turning on the TV, only to hear he had been elected Prez. I don't believe the best man/woman is even running, but I hope he/she wins! :)
        Originally posted by Ray
        But, as a soldier and I don't agree with Sniper, I think a person who has braved bullets or seen a campaign is a much better military man than a person who flew planes in peacetime.
        From what I understand of the chronology, Kerry volunteered for Swift Boats when they were not being used in combat, and went to Vietnam because he had too. I submit that if Bush's unit had been transfered to Vietnam, he probably would have gone too.
        No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
        I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
        even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
        He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

        Comment


        • #19
          Its interesting because in this article (http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231) it contrasts quotes from the main protagonists. One of whom (anti kerry) now finds that his own awards may be deemed fraudulant.

          People are now playing fast and loose with words. Kerry we expect it from, he is a career politician. The others, the retired vets, are i fear swimming out of their depth and are being used by other career politicians and spin doctors. Given that it is clear the truth won't come out (everybody is contradicting everybody else, both sides are contradicting the official records and some people are even contradicting themselves. All that is likely to get damaged are the reputations of some other fine servicement, caught up in games they don't control or, i suspect, really understand.

          The whole war crime things is dubious too. If the allegation is going to be bandied about, then prosecutions should be sort.
          at

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Trooth
            everybody is contradicting everybody else, both sides are contradicting the official records and some people are even contradicting themselves.
            That should be the new definition of politics! Nice one... ;)
            Originally posted by Trooth
            The whole war crime things is dubious too. If the allegation
            The “There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities..." speach sounded more like an admission than an allegation. Just how I see it though.
            No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
            I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
            even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
            He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Confed999
              The “There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities..." speach sounded more like an admission than an allegation. Just how I see it though.
              Without further knowledge of that speech(most websites I found were anti-Kerry sites just quoting one part), it seems to me he isn't really indicating much. He was against the war in Vietnam, he protested the war when he got back(turning a lot of veterans against him), and may have viewed the American's participation in its entirety as an atrocity. He was part of that participation. Besides, I think the end of even that quote is quite clear: "...as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire."

              Comment


              • #22
                Confed,

                I beg to disagree.

                A Silver Star is not some lollipop that you give your kid because he has been good at Christmas time. Don't devalue the medal. It is insulting to those who have it. If I had been awarded this medal, I would feel very debased by what is being written here on this thread. I would feel that I did something not worth the value that my countrymen should give because today they can sleep well at night because of my sacrifice (Remember the plaintive cry of the Colonel in 'A Few Good Men'?). It is more of a scacrifice because those who went to Veitnam were conscript and not volunteers.

                First of all, I commend the US democratic ideal that those drafted can decide with Arm or Service they wish to join or which unit he wants to join and where he shall be posted; in that Kerry could decide his posting and unit! I wish that happened in our Army. None would join the Infantry or go to Kashmir!

                Well, Kerry went to Vietnam. Bush didn't and theat coot Cheney as usual fired the gun over other's shoulders as he is doing over Bush's and ensured his name never appeared! Bloody coward Cheney.

                I have a gallantry award too, Though I an not in the US Army or Navy, I feel very debased with all this muck.
                Last edited by Ray; 23 Aug 04,, 09:44.


                "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                HAKUNA MATATA

                Comment


                • #23
                  Ray, perhaps I read your post wrong but:

                  First of all, I commend the US democratic ideal that those drafted can decide with Arm or Service they wish to join or which unit he wants to join and where he shall be posted; in that Kerry could decide his posting and unit! I wish that happened in our Army. None would join the Infantry or go to Kashmir!
                  John Kerry was not drafted, he volunteered before the war even began in full force.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by List
                    it seems to me he isn't really indicating much
                    Hmmmm, it says to me, he admits to burning villages and killing, without regard to civilians, when he didn't believe it was needed. Unlike the thousands of others, he was a well educated officer in command of his own boat.
                    Originally posted by Ray
                    Confed,

                    I beg to disagree.

                    A Silver Star...
                    I personally don't know what happened with Kerry in Vietnam, all I know is there are questions. When there are questions I want answers, real ones, not 2 sides arguing. And if there was wrong done, I want punishments for the wrong doer, regardless of the side. I have not seen sufficent proof to say any of his medals weren't deserved, so don't get me wrong.
                    Originally posted by Ray
                    in that Kerry could decide his posting and unit!
                    No, but he was given a choice of staying on a ship, or commanding a Swift Boat. He decided to go to the Swift Boats.

                    BTW, do they let the qualified enlistees pick jobs there?
                    Originally posted by Ray
                    I have a gallantry award too
                    I would suspect you have many awards, and from what I know of you, even if someone gave me concrete proof they were fraudulent, I wouldn't believe them. You are not John Kerry. You have never given me reason to distrust you, but Kerry changes his mind about everything on a day to day basis.
                    No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
                    I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
                    even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
                    He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I personally would never dare to quetion anyone who spent one minute in combat. I would never consider it appropriate to question a mans integrity or the validity of any award given to him..,

                      unless I knew for a fact he was full of mud. If that were the case I would be honor bound to expose him as a liar. if for no other reason than to insure that men who had honestly earned their medal could wear them with the knowledge that they earned them by actions deserving respect and honor, not by manipulation of the system or by embelishing the story.

                      Dragoon.
                      Yes..,You have the right To Speak, however I have the right not to listen

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I know i keep posting this link http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231# but it not only has analysis, it has the citations, the affadavits signed by those supporting / decrying him and highlights where people have changed their story.
                        at

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Trooth
                          I like that site, but they may have to update it soon. Anyway, even there, it's still all just personal accounts from 2 partisan sides.

                          http://worldnetdaily.com/news/articl...TICLE_ID=40125

                          After WND story on journal discrepancy spokesman says no enemy fire 'possible'
                          ....
                          After WorldNetDaily's report last week of a discrepancy in John Kerry's personal account of his first Purple Heart, his presidential campaign has backed off on claims that he was wounded from enemy fire.

                          WND reported that nine days after Kerry claims he was hit by hostile fire in 1968, he wrote in his journal as he set out on a subsequent mission, "A cocky feeling of invincibility accompanied us up the Long Tau shipping channel because we hadn't been shot at yet, and Americans at war who haven't been shot at are allowed to be cocky."
                          ....
                          No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
                          I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
                          even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
                          He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            When is John Kerry goint to stop all the anti-Bush ads?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Confed999
                              I like that site, but they may have to update it soon. Anyway, even there, it's still all just personal accounts from 2 partisan sides.
                              At least tey have the citations etc.

                              To my mnd, Kerry fought and, by all accounts fought well n 'Nam. Perhaps some feel he fought better than he did, some feel he fought worse, but so be it. What he did after that (i.e. not serving out his full term, then campaigning anti-war etc) is part of his leadership character and he should be judged on it. I just find arguing the toss about how he got what merit / commendation somewhat sickening. It was a war zone, all sorts of shit was happening, no-one, not even those involved, fully understand what is going on when the lead flies. To my mind when you start questioning the awards, you start questioning the integrity of not only Kerry, but those people who wrote citations, recommendations and served as comrades in arms. Hell one might as well start saying that "Silver stars, bronze stars are just worthless bits of tin because, look over there, Kerry got stuff and clearly anyone can get the damn things! Do they come in the ration packs or something?" All those old timers who shuffle to cenataphs bearing wreaths etc are being attacked and done a disservice by politicos trying to get some spin and another percentage point in some poll.

                              Equally i don't like the Kerry campaign relying on his war record as though that would make him a good president. It doesn't square up to me and feels thin. There is more to leadership than fire-fights 35 years ago. The president does more than just be commander in chief there are more issues in the US than just the War on Terror.
                              at

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Trooth
                                At least tey have the citations etc.
                                Hey, I said I like that site, I really do. My point was, without anything else concrete I don't have a question about Kerry's service. Burden of proof is on the accuser, but if the journal entry above is authentic, I have no idea if it was, there should be hell to pay. If it turns out it was a malicious attack instead, same with any of the Swift Boat stuff and MoveOn stuff, then the attackers should be punished. All I want is the truth, and since the only things I know about Kerry for sure are: he was in Vietnam, not Cambodia though, for 4 months, afterwards he admited to war crimes and accused others of the same, not only to Congress, but to the North Vietnamese as well. He spent decades in the Senate voting to raise taxes, slash intelligence spending, stop most of the weapons in use today, take away my personal liberties, etc., etc.. Finally, I know that the only thing I have to go by, with Kerry, is his past, because his story for the future changes far to often for me to keep up with. Since I've seen all of that on video, in pictures, and on his voting record, I'm not so likely to trust anything he, or even his party, says. Trust me Trooth, I judge Kerry on Kerry, nobody else, and I can write something, like the above, for many Republicans as well.
                                No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
                                I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
                                even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
                                He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

                                Comment

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