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  • Originally posted by Praxus
    I say that all wealth is produced by the human mind.
    Good. Trying "thinking" yourself breakfast in the morning.

    If you manage that, let the rest of us in on your secret.

    Originally posted by Ray
    With the Commie concept of unionisation of everything including the police, everything went to seed. There were strikes in the industry and whole lot of other hassles.

    The result industry fled.
    The capitalists dismantled their factories, put them into ships or railroad cars, and took off, eh?

    No? They left all the heavy stuff behind?

    And the "commie unions" didn't then take them over and start running them themselves?

    Well, I know very little of India but it sounds as if you have some rather "timid" communists there.

    Their stupidity, the galloping oil price rise and other problems including a poor monsoon (our agriculture is rain dependant) will slow out growth and we will never be able to maintain the 8% growth that we had in the last few years.

    Therefore, I can't stand Commies even though their ideology is heart wrenching!
    Yes, when commies start messing with the monsoons, that's clearly unforgivable.

    Bastards!

    Originally posted by ZFBoxcar
    This does not prove him right though because back when Marx was around, nobody imagined a factory worker (aka the proletariat) having a nice house in the suburbs, 2 cars, and time-share in Mexico. So basically, all "classes" in the Western world have the valuable leisure time which is what allows for class mobility.
    Not really...and less so with every passing year.

    It's true that during the period 1950-1975 (roughly), the American proletariat did very well indeed...it was a "golden age" insofar as capitalism has ever had one.

    Since then...well, things have stagnated. For the lowest sections of the proletariat, they've actually gotten somewhat worse.

    Millions of those unionized, high-paying jobs are gone. Take a ride on Amtrak (while it still exists) from Chicago to Buffalo...and see the hundreds of miles of closed and abandoned factories.

    Sure, "anybody" can still "find a job"...McDonald's and Wal-Mart are always hiring. Don't forget Manpower...some of their temporary office jobs pay as much as $15/hour (before taxes).

    But you can forget about that house and those two cars and that time-share in Mexico. Do try and have one car though...you may find yourself having to live in it.

    You may also put aside any thoughts of leisure time as well (unless you're unemployed...which you will be). I read earlier this year of a study that concluded that American office workers now put in more hours per week than they have at any time since the 1920s. And they are rarely eligible for overtime pay.

    Wal-Mart is facing, by the way, a fistful of lawsuits over failure to pay overtime...among other things.

    So yes, there was a time during which Marx's predictions about the fate of the proletariat looked positively ludicrous.

    The laughter is beginning to wane, however.

    There's no real justification for being a communist in today's West.
    So just say I'm early for the party. More guests will be showing up any minute.

    A site about communist ideas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Confed999
      Actually, you are. You have no idea what capitalism even is. You think Wal-mart is a capitalist? Who ever said Wal-mart was a person anyway? Managing your "dividends and intrest", your investments if you will, is work.

      What are communists, but people who support, and/or live, in communism.

      You make yourself out to be some kind of economic theory expert, but you're just blowing steam... Truthfully, I just think you're trying to be a troll, but nobody here is biting, we all see through your charade. When you get into high school take some classes on economics, they will enlighten you to no end...
      Hear, here! ;)

      Very polite of you to say that our exigent commie is only blowing steam by the way. Who knows, perhaps the next ill-informed diatribe will be upon the injustice of the legal drinking age? In Botswana. :)
      Last edited by The Chap; 01 Oct 04,, 03:50.
      Where's the bloody gin? An army marches on its liver, not its ruddy stomach.

      Comment


      • How come? Why can't the "lower class" people think while doing mindless repetitive work, or perhaps when they aren't working, or perhaps at lunch breaks, or perhaps on the weekends, or perhaps on the holidays?
        Again, this is not about today's world, this was 100 years ago where conditions were such for lower class people that most time and effort was spent on meeting the conditions for survival.

        You ever think that Germany was never capitalist? Or that Russia was never Capitalist?
        Russia wasn't captalist. It was still largely feudal. Germany was capitalist according to the dictionary definition:

        An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

        How was turn of the century Germany not this? And what was it if not that? Capitalism does not need to fit Ayn Rand's definition in order to be capitalism. Even Adam Smith said the government should perform certain public works which the market would not perform to being unprofitable.

        Millions of those unionized, high-paying jobs are gone. Take a ride on Amtrak (while it still exists) from Chicago to Buffalo...and see the hundreds of miles of closed and abandoned factories.
        The reason they are gone is because of the unions, first of all. Secondly, the consquences we have to pay for that are that we are post industrial. We will never really bring production back to the West. We have to focus on the service, business, and technology sectors which are the only real working sectors left for us. We reap what we sew. Perhaps by the time East Asia finishes going through the same transformation we did, we will have created a competitive enough environment to return manufacturing here.

        So yes, there was a time during which Marx's predictions about the fate of the proletariat looked positively ludicrous.

        The laughter is beginning to wane, however.
        I think it is quite possible we are in a state of decline. But capitalism is not the problem. The problem is that we have capitalism with too much regulation and not enough enforcement. Well, thats the problem in the economic system. There are other possible reasons for the decline, but they are not really the fault of any economic syste, so I won't get into them (no, I'm not a member of the religious right, so loose morals isn't one of them)..

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ZFBoxcar
          An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.
          The "free market" part is what makes it capitalism. A truly free market is devoid of government influence. Most everything else is is better termed as having capitalist tendancies, and called something besides capitalism. For example, the US has a "free market" economy, which truly isn't a free market but has some of the same properties of capitalism.
          No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
          I agree completely with this Administrationís goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
          even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
          He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. Itís the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

          Comment


          • Originally posted by redstar2000
            So just say I'm early for the party. .
            Some "Party"!
            Guest's of honour: Party theologians discussing how many "Party Faithful" that can dance on the head of a pin.
            Menu: Stale and outdated servings of the theories of Marx ang Engles.

            More guests will be showing up any minute.
            Don't count on it!
            During the Great Depression of the '30's, with mass unemployment, Bank closures and soup kitchens in every urban centre of the Western World, and with red rabble-rousers on every street corner, guess how many Western countries were turned into "Workers States"? Many? Few? Wait....None!.
            Even hungry unemployed people have the ability to recognize BS when they see and smell it!
            So you just keep waiting at your "Party"!
            When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Amled
              During the Great Depression of the '30's, with mass unemployment, Bank closures and soup kitchens in every urban centre of the Western World, and with red rabble-rousers on every street corner, guess how many Western countries were turned into "Workers States"? Many? Few? Wait....None!
              Quite true...the workers decided to stick with the bosses they knew rather than risk new ones...and were "rewarded" for their loyalty with World War II.

              Think you can sucker them again?

              Even hungry unemployed people have the ability to recognize BS when they see and smell it!
              Yes, I can understand how they must have felt...the "Communist" parties of that age were not very inspiring, to put it mildly. All they really had to offer was a change of bosses.

              That's what the whole Leninist paradigm was about (and still is)...get rid of the bad bosses and put us "good bosses" in charge.

              No one was saying all bosses are bad -- get rid of them all!

              Ah well, next time.

              A site about communist ideas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ZFBoxcar
                Again, this is not about today's world, this was 100 years ago where conditions were such for lower class people that most time and effort was spent on meeting the conditions for survival.

                I still don't see how this stops someone from thinking. The whole point of thinking is to make it easier for man to meat the condition of survival and to indeed prosper.


                Russia wasn't captalist. It was still largely feudal. Germany was capitalist according to the dictionary definition:

                An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

                How was turn of the century Germany not this? And what was it if not that? Capitalism does not need to fit Ayn Rand's definition in order to be capitalism. Even Adam Smith said the government should perform certain public works which the market would not perform to being unprofitable.
                The dictionary definition completly ignores where the word came from. I am using it as another word for Laissiez Faire as it should be.

                I think it is quite possible we are in a state of decline. But capitalism is not the problem. The problem is that we have capitalism with too much regulation and not enough enforcement. Well, thats the problem in the economic system. There are other possible reasons for the decline, but they are not really the fault of any economic syste, so I won't get into them (no, I'm not a member of the religious right, so loose morals isn't one of them)..
                How can you not beleive it is the fault of an economic system. The economy has been growing slower and slower as Government powers get larger and larger. It's not coincidence.

                [quote]uring the Great Depression of the '30's, with mass unemployment, Bank closures and soup kitchens in every urban centre of the Western World, and with red rabble-rousers on every street corner, guess how many Western countries were turned into "Workers States"? Many? Few? Wait....None!.[/quote}

                Germany turned into a fascist state, does that count?;)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by redstar2000
                  Quite true...the workers decided to stick with the bosses they knew rather than risk new ones...and were "rewarded" for their loyalty with World War II.
                  If you mean the fight agains Natzi and Japanese fascism, yes they were rewarded, they fought and won. Yes, the losses were horrendous. Inmagine the world if they had lost!

                  Think you can sucker them again?
                  If the choice was between bowing to totalitarism or fighting for freedom, Yes I do believe they would fight. But I doubt very much that they would consider themselves "suckers" as you so delicatly phrased it.


                  No one was saying all bosses are bad -- get rid of them all!
                  Ah well, next time.
                  And who would be the "boss" the next time? Ideologues like you?
                  When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

                  Comment


                  • Redstar,

                    Just see what our socialist India is saying.

                    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/a...how/871875.cms

                    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/a...how/871859.cms


                    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                    HAKUNA MATATA

                    Comment


                    • The "Commie Troll" Departs

                      Originally posted by Ray
                      Redstar,

                      Just see what our socialist India is saying.
                      Socialist? Come on!

                      Anyway, it's time for me to admit that I've made a mistake...and move on.

                      Usually, overtly reactionary message boards have "self-evident" names -- GreedMeistersForums, AynRandRules, etc. I thought a board named "World Affairs" might be more balanced.

                      What I should have done, of course, was check out that obscure poll on religion in the Pub forum...had I known that 92% of the members here are superstitious, I would not have wasted a moment of your time or mine.

                      So I owe you an apology...and promise not to trouble you further.

                      See you on the other side of the barracades.

                      A site about communist ideas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by redstar2000
                        Socialist? Come on!

                        Anyway, it's time for me to admit that I've made a mistake...and move on.

                        Usually, overtly reactionary message boards have "self-evident" names -- GreedMeistersForums, AynRandRules, etc. I thought a board named "World Affairs" might be more balanced.

                        What I should have done, of course, was check out that obscure poll on religion in the Pub forum...had I known that 92% of the members here are superstitious, I would not have wasted a moment of your time or mine.

                        So I owe you an apology...and promise not to trouble you further.

                        See you on the other side of the barracades.
                        You have produced no arguments, you make non-sequitar statements, and the few statements you make relating to the conversation are based on your own arbitrary definitions of words. It is impossible for you to make a coherant argument because the bases of your logic is fundamentally flawed.

                        This being said...

                        До свидания!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by maciasac
                          and to judge someone by the pictures on CNN, come on now? how ridiculous is that?
                          Maybe you should ask this individual,

                          Originally posted by themuffinman
                          it figures looks like a momma's boy who coudn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag.

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