2022 Uvalde TX School Shooting

[TopHatter]

14 children and a teacher shot to death at an elementary school in Texas. The shooter, an 18-year-old student, is dead.

Dear god when does it become enough?

[Albany Rifles]

14 children and a teacher shot to death at an elementary school in Texas. The shooter, an 18-year-old student, is dead.

Dear god when does it become enough?

Joe, once Newtown became acceptable to a lot of people nothing was left on the table.

I lay this at the feet of Wayne LaPierre and his ilk. And that human chode AG Ken Paxton said the solution is to arm teachers. Speaking as someone who has fired a ton of weapons of the years I wonder just how effective someone who is trying to shoot down a hall way at a moving target 35 feet away is going to do besides send ricochets all over the place. We have vilified teachers over the past few years, pay them shit wages , grossly under resource them and now we want to make them armed guards as well?

And its about damn time folks realize there are more than 1 amendment to the Constitution.

[Gun Grape]

[Monash]

Never did understand why the Supreme Court has repeatedly placed such a broad interpretation on the rights enunciated in the 2nd Amendment. (I guess I could read the transcripts of every critical decision the Court has ever made on the question but who has time for that?) For a start I've never understood how 'A well regulated militia' manages to translate into the more or less completely unregulated free for all that now prevails. A well regulated civilian militia in every State? That would be an asset to the USA. The current situation is neither well regulated or a militia. Hell I was on another board one day and suggested regulations requiring basic training and securing of firearms in the home might be of some assistance. But apparently even that has been ruled unconstitutional!

On the plus side automobiles weren't around at the time of the Revolution so at least no-one has guaranteed 'right to drive'.

[zraver]

Never did understand why the Supreme Court has repeatedly placed such a broad interpretation on the rights enunciated in the 2nd Amendment. (I guess I could read the transcripts of every critical decision the Court has ever made on the question but who has time for that?) For a start I've never understood how 'A well regulated militia' manages to translate into the more or less completely unregulated free for all that now prevails. A well regulated civilian militia in every State? That would be an asset to the USA. The current situation is neither well regulated or a militia. Hell I was on another board one day and suggested regulations requiring basic training and securing of firearms in the home might be of some assistance. But apparently even that has been ruled unconstitutional!

On the plus side automobiles weren't around at the time of the Revolution so at least no-one has guaranteed 'right to drive'.

1. Well regulated militia implies state not federal.

2. Militia then had access to cannon.... St Louis donated some to the defenders of the Alamo and some cannon used at the Battle of New Orleans came from a pirate

3. The end of the 2A says, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT be infringed". The two clauses should be read independently.

4. The militia clause is basically worthless now. All of the functions the militia once did: law enforcement (think posse/ slave patrol) and combating armed threats (think pirates, Indians and British troops) as well as mustering for natural disasters, fires, barn raisings etc are now done by professionals like state police or federally funded national guard.

5. Other rampage attacks using cars show that guns are just the tool, not the cause ditto for suicides. Jumping off a building or a noose are jsut as deadly and heart breaking.

6. There is a solid argument that guns save more lives than they take

7. I don't think we have a gun problem, I think we have a heart problem.

8. Permitted (concealed carry) gun owners are among the most lawful of any cohort of citizens

9. SCOTUS only recently incorporated the 2A and did so very narrowly in two landmark cases Heller and McDonald, broad is the wrong word

[tbm3fan]

14 children and a teacher shot to death at an elementary school in Texas. The shooter, an 18-year-old student, is dead.

Dear god when does it become enough?

The first thought that went through my mind was my 13 year old son in 7th grade. At 68 he is what I have. If anything happened to him, my life for all intents and purposes, would be over. Which means I have nothing to lose anymore, and therefore potentially, a very dangerous person to some who allowed it to happen. Hard to be reasonable when at the end of something like this. Just being honest here as I would not be someone who would form an organization like some have done in the past to keep my mind off of things. That is what went through my mind a few hours ago.

[Bigfella]

14 children and a teacher shot to death at an elementary school in Texas. The shooter, an 18-year-old student, is dead.

Dear god when does it become enough?

There isn't a number Joe. There is literally no number of murdered children that will make the difference.

You only have to look at one of the posts below and the tens of thousands like it popping up as we speak. You are dealing with the functional equivalent of a religious belief. A cultural component so powerful that it cannot be shaken. There aren't enough children with bullet holes in them that can sway that sort of belief because they will always find a way to convince themselves that America's gun culture isn't the problem. It will ALWAYS be something else.

Your country has a shooting at a school on average every other week. It is 'normal' now. It has become acceptable to those who don't want change & insufficient to motivate those who do. You have dug yourselves a hole from which you can't get out. Maybe 40 years ago this could have been stopped, but the increasing radicalization of the pro-gun demographic means that no measures capable of making an impact are going to be implemented.

Some of these people openly threaten to attack their own government & society if access to firearms is restricted. That is a problem that can only be solved by stopping it before it gets going. Too late by decades.

There are many, many things I love about your nation, but this week has given me some powerful reminders why I would never leave mine. An election run by an independent body & contested by adults who love their nation more than their personal politics, and a nation where 'school shooting' is a headline from overseas. You have my condolences.

[TopHatter]

There isn't a number Joe. There is literally no number of murdered children that will make the difference.

You only have to look at one of the posts below and the tens of thousands like it popping up as we speak. You are dealing with the functional equivalent of a religious belief. A cultural component so powerful that it cannot be shaken. There aren't enough children with bullet holes in them that can sway that sort of belief because they will always find a way to convince themselves that America's gun culture isn't the problem. It will ALWAYS be something else.

Your country has a shooting at a school on average every other week. It is 'normal' now. It has become acceptable to those who don't want change & insufficient to motivate those who do. You have dug yourselves a hole from which you can't get out. Maybe 40 years ago this could have been stopped, but the increasing radicalization of the pro-gun demographic means that no measures capable of making an impact are going to be implemented.

Absolutely correct. Like Gunny's picture above, the 2nd Amendment will be protected by whataboutisms, false equivalencies and the lives of innocent children.

Although equating it with a religious belief bestows upon it too much dignity. It's a cult.

[Monash]

1. Well regulated militia implies state not federal.

2. Militia then had access to cannon.... St Louis donated some to the defenders of the Alamo and some cannon used at the Battle of New Orleans came from a pirate

3. The end of the 2A says, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT be infringed". The two clauses should be read independently.

4. The militia clause is basically worthless now. All of the functions the militia once did: law enforcement (think posse/ slave patrol) and combating armed threats (think pirates, Indians and British troops) as well as mustering for natural disasters, fires, barn raisings etc are now done by professionals like state police or federally funded national guard.

Just going to deal with these four points, the others aren't really arguments relating to the Constitution

1) Well yes, they would be State based. States used to have their own State Guard Units (I think Texas Still does?).

2) A militia can be equipped with any armaments or other equipment necessary for them to perform their duties including equipment useful in say disaster response.

3) Why? There's nothing explicitly stated in the Amendment that says they must be read that way.

4) Again why? It cant be worthless if its in the Constitution. All sections of the Constitution have to be taken as having meaning/validity. To do otherwise is selective editing. Beyond that functions like Policing and disaster relief in the US are managed at multiple levels Local, Sate and Federal so there is No reason State based volunteer militias shouldn't be viable as institutions capable of being called upon by their State and local authorities in case of emergency.

[Bigfella]

Absolutely correct. Like Gunny's picture above, the 2nd Amendment will be protected by whataboutisms, false equivalencies and the lives of innocent children.

Although equating it with a religious belief bestows upon it too much dignity. It's a cult.

Any cult that suvrives its founders and grows big enough generally gets to be a religion. This one has over 200 years in one form or another and is stronger than ever, though it is in a particularly radical phase at the moment.

The simplest way to deal with this is just accept that you live in a country where a room full of children with bullet holes is the 'high price of freedom'....or something.

[TopHatter]

The simplest way to deal with this is just accept that you live in a country where a room full of children with bullet holes is the 'high price of freedom'....or something.

That's pretty much the case.

Oh and let's not forget that the usual inevitable pack of shit stains that'll arrive sooner rather than later to claim 'hoax' and 'crisis actors'.

Same old routine, same old song-and-dance. The performers never change and neither does their script.

[zraver]

Just going to deal with these four points, the others aren't really arguments relating to the Constitution

1) Well yes, they would be State based. States used to have their own State Guard Units (I think Texas Still does?).

Several stares do including some liberal ones but they are atrophied and redundant.

2) A militia can be equipped with any armaments or other equipment necessary for them to perform their duties including equipment useful in say disaster response.

|

I don't think so. I don't see the Feds selling artillery or tanks to "state regulated militias", at least not modern ones. The Texas Navy did have a surplus battleship though. Also, and I am not 100% sure, but I think existing federal law requires the militia to provide their own not state arms and only the federal government can re-arm them. Thats old and murky though since the think the law is from the 1700's

3) Why? There's noting explicitly stated in the Amendment that says they must be read that way.

Because each clause is co-equal. Take the Fifth Amendment

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Each clause is valid on its face without relation to the other clauses. The prohibition on double jeopardy does not depend on a Grand Jury. Likewise a Grand Jury cannot make you testify against yourself without some sort of immunity. You can apply this method to each amendment and its equally valid in all of them. Reading the 2A to require the first part to enable the second falls on its face if you read the other amendments that way. See your very next point that alll have meaning and validity.

4) Again why? It cant be worthless if its in the Constitution. All sections of the Constitution have to be taken as having meaning/validity. To do otherwise is selective editing. Beyond that functions like Policing and disaster relief in the US are managed at multiple levels Local, Sate and Federal so there is No reason State based volunteer militias shouldn't be viable as institutions capable of being called upon by their State and local authorities in case of emergency.

Because the militia functions are now done by other specialized agencies for the most part. So a state COULD properly regulate a militia because the clause is valid and find it to do any/all of the militia functions but that would be redundant and also leave the state open to having its militia federalized. You can't federalize state cops. Plus professionals/ dedicated volunteers are going to respond faster than militia that has to muster.

[Monash]

Addressing the above. The fact State Militias are (using your words) atrophied doesn't means they have to be. There might be upper limits on what the Federal Government would equip State militias with but there's no reason to say that limit would not still be well above the current limitations on the types of weapon systems private citizens can own. Also the 2nd Amendment only contains one clause! 'A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.' Hell for that matter it only has one sentence! You literally cannot read it and not take all parts as being 'co-equal', which was my original point! For all intents and purposes the first half of that one sentence many as well be taken as not existing (or never having been written, take your pick) because it has literally no impact on how the amendment is interpreted at law.

[Bigfella]

That's pretty much the case.

Oh and let's not forget that the usual inevitable pack of shit stains that'll arrive sooner rather than later to claim 'hoax' and 'crisis actors'.

Same old routine, same old song-and-dance. The performers never change and neither does their script.

From the time he was a kid my cousin dreamed of moving to the US & making it big. When I visited him there in 2011 he had been there for most of his adult life. One of his kids was born there. We dropped her off for her first day at school and he confided in me that he was thinking of moving back to Australia. This would effectively end his fairly rapid climb up the ranks of Amazon. Why? One of the resons was tha the didn't want his children growing up in a place where 'active shooter drills' are something kids are taught to do, or where teachers might be expected to carry guns in school.

This article from an Australian journalist who spent time in the US reminded me of that conversation. How terminally fucked up does a country have to be that 2 year olds are taught how to hide when someone shoots up your daycare?

Some time that year my two year-old developed a fear of tigers. Using the few words he had at his disposal, he talked about it from his high chair at dinner and sometimes again at bedtime.

We presumed it came from a story someone had read to him and dismissed it, but the fear lingered long enough for me to mention it one day as I dropped him off at the daycare centre he happily attended a couple of days each week.

The teacher explained she’d been running her little charges through survival drills. When she told the kids “the tiger” was coming, they had to huddle in a small room under her stairs in silence until she gave them the all-clear.

The drill was based on instructions issued after the September 11 attacks in 2001, but it had been adapted for shootings. Across the country, worried teachers were doing the same thing, just as school boards considered armouring doors and a cottage industry sprang up selling bulletproof school bags large enough for the smallest students to shelter behind.

https://www.theage.com.au/world/nort...25-p5aoe1.html

[zraver]

Addressing the above. The fact State Militias are (using your words) atrophied doesn't means they have to be. There might be upper limits on what the Federal Government would equip State militias with but there's no reason to say that limit would not still be well above the current limitations on the types of weapon systems private citizens can own. Also the 2nd Amendment only contains one clause! 'A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.' Hell for that matter it only has one sentence! You literally cannot read it and not take all parts as being 'co-equal', which was my original point! For all intents and purposes the first half of that one sentence many as well be taken as not existing (or never having been written, take your pick) because it has literally no impact on how the amendment is interpreted at law.

see my example of the 5th, it is also a run on sentence. Its how they were written. Clause might not be the right word, but the gist remains true. Each part of the sentence stands alone in authority and is not dependent on what comes before it. The Militia clause is backed by its own relevant set of federal and state laws on its implementation. The second part has recently been incorporated via Heller and McDonald. You can't read the 2A differently than how the rest of the BoR are read.