2024 U.S. Election of President and Vice President

[rj1]

the darkly amusing thing is that if this were Nikki Haley running, the GOP would almost certainly win by a crushing landslide, Biden quitting or not. And we'd all be breathing a lot easier...or at least S2 would. :-)

Yes, but this GOP are running against the pre-2016 GOP as much as they are the Democrats. As a person that identifies more with the pre-2016 GOP but thinks the Democrats are so incredibly out to lunch on so many issues (some of my problems with Trump are he's a 1980s Democrat economically, remove his stance on taxes and he's pretty much an old-school Labor Democrat on the economy and spending, that's why the Teamsters boss was at the RNC), neither of the two main parties represent me. In foreign policy terms, I think you can vote for Trump and that will end up being anti-Ukraine or you can vote for Harris and that will end up being anti-Israel (as pro-Palestine has been connotated to being anti-Israel). Rank-and-file American cares way more about Israel than they do Ukraine. Sorry to make anyone in this thread sad, just being honest.

[zraver]

So, did you recently decide that a peaceful transfer of power was a "Far Left" thing, or is this a long-standing conviction you've had?
(and, by the way, why would there be any other issue of equal importance? NATO? Ukraine? Taiwan? Citizen's actual rights to decide deeply personal things for themselves?)

I've always been in favor of the peaceful transition of power.

Ukraine is the central issue. If the western alliance breaks NATO is screwed and so is Taiwan and likely Japan. Russia, China, Iran and NK are all linked and between them they have a finger in almost every evil pie from human trafficking to transnational narcotics trade.

What deeply held rights would those be? I am generally socially liberal until it impinges on someone elses rights. When rights collide, I think we should err on the side of the most benefit to the most.

[zraver]

Boozman a moderate?!?!?!?! Maybe for Arkansas but not for the rest of us.

And Trump was harder on Russia and backed Ukraine...especially when he tried to extract political favors from their President in return for defensive support passed and funded by Congress.

Yeah, hie is a moderate... His Conservative Review Score is 64. Compare that to Cotton's 81. My Rep French Hill is a 54.

The standard I was weighing Trump against was Bush 43 and especially Obama both of whom deserve a lot of blame for enabling Putin.

Astrailis, I've roasted Elbridge I don't know how many times. Dude is a complete coward. His former mentor and now adversary is actually one of my Twitter followers because of my roasts of him.

[Amled]

Trump says he’ll debate Harris

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/0...ebate-00170732

Here’s a debate that’ll be worth watching, even at 3 am over here!
On one hand you’ll have Trump, whose idea of debate is wildly unsubstantiated bombastic statements!
On the other side you’ll have Harris. A former prosecutor! Articulate and intelligent, used to public speaking!
My guess is that the odds are that she’ll tear him a new one!
That is if he doesn’t somehow weasel out of it!

[DOR]

So now I have to vote for dumpster fire. Trump/Far Right or Biden/Far Left.

So, did you recently decide that a peaceful transfer of power was a "Far Left" thing, or is this a long-standing conviction you've had?
(and, by the way, why would there be any other issue of equal importance? NATO? Ukraine? Taiwan? Citizen's actual rights to decide deeply personal things for themselves?)

[astralis]

sorry z, hate to pile on -- especially because I like your willingness to buck the call of partisan politics for the sake of giving the Russians a kick in the balls.

but...

The VP pick is serious signaling.

it's -signaling-, yes. but even had Trump picked, I dunno, Nikki Haley -- the best of the entire GOP lot on Ukraine -- you would be making a huge leap of faith that post-election, Trump would listen to his VP and go back on everything he's said and demonstrated since his "perfect" phone call.

given what he did with Mike Pence, I kinda doubt that.

the simple truth of the matter is that Trump has a political vendetta against Zelensky, Trump has a man-crush on dictators like Putin and Xi and even little Kim, and in any case his ideology (to the extent that he has one) is isolationist.

the most he's willing to do is to provide a "realist" excuse cooked up by the likes of Elbridge Colby and repeated by Vance ("we need to prioritize China and leave Ukraine to the Europeans"). but even then he can't hold onto that excuse for long -- see his recent comments about Taiwan.

[Albany Rifles]

Boozman a moderate?!?!?!?! Maybe for Arkansas but not for the rest of us.

And Trump was harder on Russia and backed Ukraine...especially when he tried to extract political favors from their President in return for defensive support passed and funded by Congress.

[zraver]

TH, talking nice and playing nice are different things. Compared to Obama Trump was much harder on Russia and friendlier to Ukraine. That is what I was hoping for. I didn't give Trump a look until I didn't have a protest vote and I was forced to pick the least bad dumpster fire. My local Congressional Rep French Hill is a solid Ukraine supporter as are both senators Bozeman (moderate) and Cotton (neocon). Of Arkansas 6 elected members of Congress only 1 is a magoid and I can't vote for him (not my district). Most of the elected members of the GOP support Ukraine, maga is a minority among elected members.

[tbm3fan]

Ukraine is my number 1 issue. I will set aside everything else to see Moscow defeated and the Western alliance survive so that China never sees a green light and starts lobbing missile not just at Taiwan but at Guam, Japan and our carriers. A united alliance and aggressor crushed is the best way out of this mess for our country. We cannot appease aggression, it cannot be bargianed with, it must be opposed and told exactly where the fence lines are.

As TH said, hmmm. Same way I feel. However what is highlighted above is an absolute must if there ever was one. We need to guarantee that both Russia and China understand there is a strong, firm line in the sand and we will NEVER get that from Trump. His election could be catastrophic for foreign policy long after he is dead and gone and he wouldn't give a shit.

[TopHatter]

I know TH doesn't believe me, but I am not a Trump voter.

Alright... **deep sigh** I wasn't going to touch this can of worms, but that^^ left me no choice.

First of all, I'm on the record acknowledging that you probably didn't vote for Trump.

But I'm also on the record pointing out that regardless of who you voted for, you were (until quite recently) 100% in the tank for Trump, defending/apologizing for him left, right and center. Your response to that inconvenient fact has always been "I didn't vote for Trump", which is completely not what I was saying.

Iain would make the same disingenuous claim: "I couldn't possibly be a Trump supporter/defender because I can't vote in U.S. elections!" Because apparently you need to vote for someone in order to act the apologist for them online..

But, regardless of all that, then you just posted this, which almost made my head explode:

(1) Raver: I so wanted Trump to pick a running mate that would let me vote GOP. Instead he picked Vance. For what is worth this betrayal of Reagan conservatism and embrace of Moscow’s imperial ambition leaves me no choice. I am endorsing and" / X

Now, I don't know of any other way to interpret that, maybe someone else can me out, but the only thing keeping you from "voting GOP", in 2024, after all that's happened, after all that Trump AND the GOP have done....was Trump's pick of a running mate? That was your only deal breaker to "voting GOP"? How exactly would that have worked, if you weren't voting for Trump? What difference would it have made if Trump picked Vance or some little green man from Mars?

And you're only just now, in 2024, seeing that Trump and the GOP have betrayed Reagan conservatism and embraced Moscow's imperial ambition? Seriously? Where have you been since 2015?

You claim that you've tossed the Libertarian Party aside because they went "full vatnik".

That being the case, how in the world would you describe the Trump and the GOP's embrace of Putin and constant obstructionism to aiding Ukraine for the past 3 years?

If you're so concerned about Ukraine, why would you make so much as a sideways glance at the GOP?

I'm sorry but none of any of that makes a bit of sense.

All that said, I'm extraordinarily relieved that you've seen the stakes for the coming election, even if, like me in Florida, your vote in ruby red Arkansas will get buried under the avalanche of votes for Trump.

You certainly have a metric crap ton more sense than my asshole brother.

[Monash]

.... My big fear now is that VPOTUS Harris will not try to win the middle but go full woke including betraying Israel and hand everything to Trump on a silver platter.

That may be the temptation but she and her advisors have to be crunching the numbers because this close to the election? That's ALL that matters. She knows she needs the capture more votes in the center if she is to have any chance of winning. She also has to know that doing what you suggested will not achieve that. All it would do? Is reinforce the voting intentions of people who are almost certainly going to vote for her anyway.

Nice to see you back BTW.

[zraver]

I do have a question for Z here though -- as Amled mentioned, it's not as if the VP is gonna do much of anything, other than keep alive. was the hope that Trump would die in office and that a Reagan conservative VP fill his shoes? that seems like a pretty thin reed to rest a vote on.

I hear on Twitter that Musk "picked" Vance, but that sounds like BS to me. Trump just didn't want a repeat of Pence, he wants someone with....flexible principles....and Vance has that in spades, and he does it more believably than Rubio or Burgum.

The VP pick is serious signaling. I know TH doesn't believe me, but I am not a Trump voter. I live in ruby red Arkansas so first for the Neocons including Bush (2nd term) McCain and then Trump I voted LP for President. I didn't vote for Romney (but would ahve) becuase I was on the road rushing to NYC after Hurricane Sandy. It was a nice safe protest vote niche. That niche vanished in 22 when the LP went full vatnik. So now I have to vote for dumpster fire. Trump/Far Right or Biden/Far Left. They are different dumpster fires, but it still smells like burning trash from here.

Ukraine is my number 1 issue. I will set aside everything else to see Moscow defeated and the Western alliance survive so that China never sees a green light and starts lobbing missile not just at Taiwan but at Guam, Japan and our carriers. A united alliance and aggressor crushed is the best way out of this mess for our country. We cannot appease aggression, it cannot be bargianed with, it must be opposed and told exactly where the fence lines are.

Biden was the dumpster fire I could at least roast my Ukraine smores on. I was hoping that in picking Haley or Pompeo (I voted Haley in the primary) I might be able to roast my Ukraine smore and maybe get a couple of conservative policy wins as well. Instead he picked Vance and signaled pretty loudly that conservatism and standing by our allies was not on his radar. Instead it was going to be pure populism and appeasement. So Biden it is, I will hold my nose.. Then he dropped out.

My big fear now is that VPOTUS Harris will not try to win the middle but go full woke including betraying Israel and hand everything to Trump on a silver platter.

[tbm3fan]

KAMALA: Keeping And Making America Lawful Again.

Original work from what I can see. Slogans a hidden skill? Nonetheless, it isn't bad.

[tbm3fan]

I do have a question for Z here though -- as Amled mentioned, it's not as if the VP is gonna do much of anything, other than keep alive. was the hope that Trump would die in office and that a Reagan conservative VP fill his shoes? that seems like a pretty thin reed to rest a vote on.

I hear on Twitter that Musk "picked" Vance, but that sounds like BS to me. Trump just didn't want a repeat of Pence, he wants someone with....flexible principles....and Vance has that in spades, and he does it more believably than Rubio or Burgum.

So you're saying Vance is more than likely to say Jawohl when ordered? Yeah, I can see it.

[astralis]

Truer words never spoken... I feel exactly the same way and said so publicly on Twitter/X. Lets hope there are enough of us to make a difference and hope that Kamala Harris decides to be a centrist and picks her veep accordingly.

(1) Raver: NAFO's official polemist, Slava Ukraini! on X: "I detest Biden and Leftist politics in general. I so wanted Trump to pick a running mate that would let me vote GOP. Instead he picked Vance. For what is worth this betrayal of Reagan conservatism and embrace of Moscow’s imperial ambition leaves me no choice. I am endorsing and" / X

I do have a question for Z here though -- as Amled mentioned, it's not as if the VP is gonna do much of anything, other than keep alive. was the hope that Trump would die in office and that a Reagan conservative VP fill his shoes? that seems like a pretty thin reed to rest a vote on.

I hear on Twitter that Musk "picked" Vance, but that sounds like BS to me. Trump just didn't want a repeat of Pence, he wants someone with....flexible principles....and Vance has that in spades, and he does it more believably than Rubio or Burgum.