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In your opinion, Rittenhouse - murder or self defence?

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  • In your opinion, Rittenhouse - murder or self defence?

    Obviously the jury has spoken, though of course Nadler wants to make it a Federal issue, but in your own opinion, which do you believe?
    6
    Murder
    16.67%
    1
    Self defence
    33.33%
    2
    Other - please explain
    50.00%
    3
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

    Leibniz

  • #2
    Obviously laws between NZ and the US differ but here you don't insert yourself between rioters and police unless the police are under immediate attack, and you don't bring a semi-automatic rifle to a riot, regardless of side.
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

    Leibniz

    Comment


    • #3
      Here's the ACLU's view, via twitter



      ACLU

      @ACLU
      BREAKING: Kyle Rittenhouse was found not guilty of the fatal shooting of two, and injury of another, during the protest over the shooting of Jacob Blake by the Kenosha Police Department.


      This situation represents an outrageous failure to protect protesters by the Kenosha Police Department and Kenosha County Sheriff’s Office.



      Months of research and open records requests have uncovered many incidents in which police encouraged white militia members to become armed vigilantes in the street due to their failure to control the crowd.



      Despite Kyle Rittenhouse’s conscious decision to travel across state lines and injure one person and take the lives of two people protesting the shooting of Jacob Blake by police, he was not held responsible for his actions. Unfortunately, this is not surprising.



      His acquittal comes after our investigation exposed how Kenosha law enforcement used violence against protesters and drove them toward white militia groups, in ways that escalated tensions and almost certainly led to these shootings.



      It is far too easy to overlook the impact that violence in defense of white supremacy has on the Black and Brown communities.



      When the community rose up to exercise their First Amendment right to protest after the police shot a Black man in the back — in front of his children, police enabled white supremacist militia members. The result of this failure was bloodshed, the loss of lives, and trauma.



      No one should be targeted, threatened, or attacked for exercising our First Amendment right to protest. It is our right to protest and demand justice. We’ll be watching to ensure no one — including law enforcement — interferes with that right.



      And as we reimagine public safety, we need to create solutions that extend that safety to all communities — including those that have been systematically neglected and preyed upon.
      Last edited by Parihaka; 20 Nov 21,, 23:01.
      In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

      Leibniz

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
        Obviously laws between NZ and the US differ but here you don't insert yourself between rioters and police unless the police are under immediate attack, and you don't bring a semi-automatic rifle to a riot, regardless of side.
        He had no business whatsoever being there. In fact there was every reason in the world for him not to be there, starting with his utter lack of training for the situation and ending with his white supremacist ties. I'd say it's pretty obvious he went there looking for trouble, not to keep the peace, the usual ammosexual vigilante fantasies of blowing people away in the name of The Cause. He certainly showed not the slightest shred of remorse for the men whose lives he ended that night.

        Having said all that, I have no idea about the specific circumstances immediately before he opened fire on those men. Maybe he was indeed afraid for his life but maybe he should've stayed home where he belonged.
        Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

        Comment


        • #5
          Three important facts: 1, His going to the riot and was a bad decision. 2. Carrying a rifle was a bad decision. 3. Bad decisions are not criminal.

          When he was attacked he attempted to retreat. Attempting to retreat was not required, but it shows intent in the moment. He never advanced on the protestors, never menaced them, never tried to play hero. Every single step of the way, he was the victim, pursued, struck, knocked down, beaten with a club, and finally he had a loaded and illegal firearm pointed at him. He did not even fire first. Everyone who attacked him committed a violent crime before they were shot. Their right to physical safety is null and void during the commission of a violent crime. Nothing new here, people F around and find out all the time. His bad decisions did not entitle the mob to attack him. Had he not been armed, he would be another Ahmed Aubry, a dead body at the feet of an all white mob

          He was prosecuted for political reasons, and the prosecution cheated.

          1. They scheduled trials for other people involved (lesser charges) after the murder trial so he could not call them as witnesses. Ethically the misdemeanor charges should have been resolved first so the person charged with murder would have access to the full list of witnesses.
          2. They used witnesses the police said were lying, relying on the defense not being permitted to police statements to impeach the prosecution witnesses.
          3. They concealed the identity of jump kick man so he could not be called as a witness
          4. They pressured at least 1 witness to lie.
          5. They tried to imply silence was evidence of guilt
          6. They tried to imply lawful behavior was evidence of provocation
          7. They tried to slip in things that were excluded by the judge after a fairly held evidence hearing.
          8. They tried to imply he was an outsider even though his dad lived there, he was employed there and only lived 20 minutes away.
          9. If they do that when the world is watching, what do they do when they think no light shines on them?

          Despite the prosecution cheating, and the unprecedented pressure put on the jury by the media and protestors they still were unable to achieve a guilty verdict on any of the charged crimes or any of the lesser included offenses. A full acquittal is as close as anyone can come in the American judicial system of a full exoneration.

          His victims included a convicted child rapist, all 4 were/are women beaters and a the wounded survivor is convicted thief who brought an illegal firearm. All were felons, all were part of a mob actively engaged in a violent felony (arson). At least two and possibly three of the attackers committed violent felonies against Kyle Rittenhouse before he shot/shot at them.

          Comment


          • #6
            Nexus

            Click image for larger versionName:	AIm Kyle rittenhouse.jpgViews:	0Size:	100.1 KBID:	1578489

            https://twitter.com/Iyervval/status/1462049246882848776

            Looking for patterns and we find it

            If it happens in one country you bet its happening or will happen elsewhere too

            How very NYT
            Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Nov 21,, 23:40.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TopHatter View Post

              He had no business whatsoever being there. In fact there was every reason in the world for him not to be there, starting with his utter lack of training for the situation and ending with his white supremacist ties. I'd say it's pretty obvious he went there looking for trouble, not to keep the peace, the usual ammosexual vigilante fantasies of blowing people away in the name of The Cause. He certainly showed not the slightest shred of remorse for the men whose lives he ended that night.

              Having said all that, I have no idea about the specific circumstances immediately before he opened fire on those men. Maybe he was indeed afraid for his life but maybe he should've stayed home where he belonged.
              Defense provided the FBI with the pass word to his phone: no ties to racist or militia groups. No pre-shooting social media evidence of any such ties. He is (probably) going to go Sandman all over the talking heads including Joe Biden that tried to smear him and end up with a bank account that reads into the hundreds of millions of dollars. All your arguments however do apply to the people he shot. None of them had any reason to be there and every reason not to be, at least 1 of them was dropping N word bombs, 1 had an illegal firearm, all were engaged in felony behavior before they attacked him....

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                Defense provided the FBI with the pass word to his phone: no ties to racist or militia groups. No pre-shooting social media evidence of any such ties.
                A lack of content his phone is not proof of a lack of ties to racist or militia group. Flashing white power signs while being "serenaded" by the Proud Boys with their anthem is generally more revealing.

                KENOSHA COUNTY, Wis. (CBS 58) Kyle Rittenhouse, who is accused of killing two protesters in Kenosha, is now prohibited from drinking or associating with hate groups.

                Kenosha County prosecutors say they have surveillance video of the 18-year-old flashing the “OK” white power/white supremacist hand sign inside Pudgy’s Pub on Jan. 5.

                They say he was serenaded by adults with the Proud Boys', a white supremacist group, anthem.
                Click image for larger version

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                Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                  A lack of content his phone is not proof of a lack of ties to racist or militia group. Flashing white power signs while being "serenaded" by the Proud Boys with their anthem is generally more revealing.


                  Click image for larger version

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                  Post shooting, PB trying glom on. PB are nationalist and anti-communist and pro-political violence for sure, but white power is a stretch too far given thier mixed race membership.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by zraver View Post

                    Post shooting, PB trying glom on. PB are nationalist and anti-communist and pro-political violence for sure, but white power is a stretch too far given thier mixed race membership.
                    Proud Boys made him flash that white power sign? No, white power is not a stretch. You're free to believe what you choose of course. Doesn't make it reality.

                    Proud Boys are a dangerous 'white supremacist' group say US agencies

                    The far-right Proud Boys group whom Donald Trump told to “stand by” during this week’s presidential debate is seen as a dangerous organization by law enforcement, according to leaked assessments of the organization from federal, state and local agencies.

                    Trump’s refusal to condemn white supremacists during the debate, and his suggestion that the Proud Boys “stand by” during the current 2020 election campaign sent shockwaves through American politics. The Southern Poverty Law Center calls the Proud Boys a hate group.

                    Files from the Blueleaks trove of leaked law enforcement documents reveal warnings about the Proud Boys, who some of the US agencies label as “white supremacists” and “extremists”, and others as a “gang”, showing persistent concerns about the group’s menace to minority groups and even police officers, and its dissemination of dangerous conspiracy theories.

                    Repeated warnings about the Proud Boys, and descriptions of them as a dangerous white supremacist group, were issued by members of the national network of counter-terrorist fusion centers. The Colorado Information Analysis Center (CIAC) showed particular, repeated concerns about the group, and their activities in that state.

                    In a 22-page 2019 document titled Violent Extremism in Colorado: a Reference Guide for Law Enforcement, published by CIAC, the state’s division of homeland security, and the Colorado department of public safety, various incidents of violence involving the Proud Boys are discussed under the heading of White Supremacist Extremism.

                    On page 15 of the document, the group is discussed in terms of the “threat to Colorado” from white supremacist extremists, and the “concern that white supremacist extremists will continue attacking members of the community who threaten their belief of Caucasian superiority”.

                    In illustrating this threat, the document reports on local members of the neo-Nazi group Atomwaffen Division, and Charlottesville’s deadly Unite the Right rally, but also offers that “there have been several incidents in Colorado between the Proud Boys and Rocky Mountain Antifa, to include violent clashes at protests”, and “two members of the Proud Boys were convicted of assaulting Antifa members during a 2018 fight in New York”.

                    Two pages later, the same document incorporates the Proud Boys, along with Atomwaffen, the Soldiers of Odin, and skinhead groups such as the Hammerskins in a list titled White Supremacist Groups with a Presence in Colorado.

                    Later, CIAC pointed to the group as a source of Covid-19 conspiracy theories. On 10 May this year, in a bulletin on Covid-19 Protest Disinformation Campaigns, CIAC described how “the Proud Boys, a far-right extremist group, has been active in spreading conspiracy theories regarding Covid-19 on Twitter, Facebook, and Telegram”, suggesting that “a faction of elites are weaponizing the virus, and a vaccine would likely be a tool for population control and mind control”.

                    The bulletin also warns that “spread of disinformation has the potential to cause civil unrest and mass panic”.

                    Agencies have defined the Proud Boys as a threat throughout most of their active existence.

                    As early as August 2018, a brief from another fusion center, the Northern California Regional Intelligence Center (NCRIC), summarizes a report of rightwing groups gathering weapons before a rally. The basis for the warning is a July call from a named man to the Berkeley police department, expressing concern about someone who he knew “who is allegedly a member of the right-wing group called Proud Boys” who is “gathering masks, helmets, and guns and would have absolute war with the liberals at an event scheduled to take place in Berkeley on August 5, 2018”.

                    A much-heralded Say No to Marxism rally was held in the city that day, and saw the Proud Boys and their allies outnumbered by counter-protesters.

                    Mike Sena, executive director of NCRIC, told the Guardian that “everyone’s absolutely entitled to their freedom of speech”, but that “violence is a crime”, and that this kind of intelligence was passed to partners when “people mention the possibility of going to an event with weapons”.

                    In 2019, the Texas-based fusion center, the Austin Regional Intelligence Center, warned in a Special Event Threat Assessment of potential dangers to the Austin Pride Parade.

                    It identified the Proud Boys as being associated with a “growing backlash against Pride Month [which] has emerged in the form of the Straight Pride movement”, noting that “on 28 June 2019, a Trans Pride parade event in Seattle, Washington was disrupted by the alt-right Proud Boys organization”.

                    There is also evidence of concern about the group from local agencies, some of whom define the Proud Boys as a gang.

                    In 2019, a flyer from the Orange county, California, probation department advertised a “One Day Law Enforcement Training” day covering “white gangs”.

                    In one session of the training day on 19 April, the flyer said, two probation officers would “delve into ideological groups including KKK in Orange county as well as other hate groups/gangs including RAM (Rise Above Movement), Proud Boys, Traditionalist Worker’s Party, Hammerskins, WAR, and cover Antifa and sovereign citizens”.
                    _________
                    Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                      Obviously laws between NZ and the US differ but here you don't insert yourself between rioters and police unless the police are under immediate attack, and you don't bring a semi-automatic rifle to a riot, regardless of side.
                      The worst Rittenhouse would have gotten in New Zealand is illegal firearms pocession and illegal firearms discharge. He would still be found not guilty of murder. He was attempting retreat not once, not twice, but three times. All three times, he was denied retreat and forced into a confrontation. He was stupid up the ying-yang but there is zero laws against stupidity.

                      Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                      Here's the ACLU's view, via twitter
                      This situation represents an outrageous failure to protect protesters by the Kenosha Police Department and Kenosha County Sheriff’s Office.
                      Woe, newspeak. How outragrous is it for the Kenosha Police not to protect RIOTERS.

                      The police did their job. Isolation and reduction. It is immensely stupid to immerse small units into the middle of a riot to initiate violence only to be surrounded by rioters.
                      Chimo

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        The worst Rittenhouse would have gotten in New Zealand is illegal firearms pocession and illegal firearms discharge. He would still be found not guilty of murder. He was attempting retreat not once, not twice, but three times. All three times, he was denied retreat and forced into a confrontation. He was stupid up the ying-yang but there is zero laws against stupidity.
                        Might disagree about the firearms thing, our courts are very easily swayed by politics but as for the stupidity thing, couldn't agree more. Why the hell would anyone in their right mind want to do anything like he did.
                        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        Woe, newspeak. How outragrous is it for the Kenosha Police not to protect RIOTERS.

                        The police did their job. Isolation and reduction. It is immensely stupid to immerse small units into the middle of a riot to initiate violence only to be surrounded by rioters.
                        Thought you'd get a laugh from that. The only bizarre bit is it's from something named after civil liberties.
                        In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                        Leibniz

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                          A lack of content his phone is not proof of a lack of ties to racist or militia group. Flashing white power signs while being "serenaded" by the Proud Boys with their anthem is generally more revealing.

                          It's irrelevant to the case though, in just the same way the previous crimes of the people he shot is irrelevant, as much as the alt-right wanted to make it central. The only reason it ever got publicised was through the prosecution highlighting it to WAPO in an attempt to sway potential jurors.
                          In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                          Leibniz

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            First off he got a firearm he was not suppose to have. Two, he went armed to help protect some car dealership. Three, since he was armed he was expecting trouble. Brandishing a gun means you are going to use it and if not then why bring it. Fourth, I cannot say that throwing a bag or trying to grab your rifle is an eminent threat to your life. Putting that aside after he fired shots at the first person it now became an active shooter situation where some run to the threat and others run away. In my opinion once he fired, and created the active shooter situation, he became the eminent threat to the lives of others and they had every right to self defense and to disarm him. I would have convicted him of murder of the second person running towards him to hit him with the skateboard as he was the threat. I would have convicted him of attempted murder on the third guy who also came towards the threat with a hand gun. A hand gun that gun rights people want to be able to carry concealed in order to protect against an active shooter situation. Can't have it both ways concerning the third guy.

                            All I can say now is that he better keep a low profile as his name has now marked him for life. He wants to go to college. Where will he go where he won't be singled out. He was a stupid 17 year old who did a tremendously stupid thing that he got away with via a court of law however the public court now has him for life now.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              You're missing the part that he was returning fire. Prior to the bag being thrown and struggling for the rifle, a rioter firearm was clearly phone videoed being discharged at Rittenhouse. At that point, being disarmed in a crowd of active shooters deliberately targetting you was no longer an option.

                              Your arguement being attacked by a skateboard is non sequittor. You can crack a skull with a skateboard. It is not murder to respond with overwhelming force.

                              On your 3rd example, you are ignoring the retreat. Rittenhouse was on the retreat, running away. He was not on the attack. The other gunman was. That alone quash the attempted murder charge.

                              Again, in all 3 cases, Rittenhouse was clearly on the retreat. He was filmed on the retreat. He was denied the retreat. You will have a hard time convincing any jury of murder when it is clearly shown that the man was trying the run away.
                              Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 21 Nov 21,, 04:50.
                              Chimo

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