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  • A conservative perspective

    To counterbalance what is now a left/extreme-left board: a nicely written view of the past four years from a European who like me has been watching increasingly aghast over the last decade.
    This is a twitter thread, I've compounded it as one post.

    I think I've had discussions w/enough Boomer-tier Trump supporters who believe the 2020 election was fraudulent to extract a general theory about their perspective. It is also the perspective of most of the people at the Capitol on 1/6, and probably even Trump himself. 1/x

    Most believe some or all of the theories involving midnight ballots, voting machines, etc, but what you find when you talk to them is that, while they'll defend those positions w/info they got from Hannity or Breitbart or whatever, they're not particularly attached to them. 2/x


    Here are the facts - actual, confirmed facts - that shape their perspective: 1) The FBI/etc spied on the 2016 Trump campaign using evidence manufactured by the Clinton campaign. We now know that all involved knew it was fake from Day 1 (see: Brennan's July 2016 memo, etc). 3/x

    These are Tea Party people. The types who give their kids a pocket Constitution for their birthday and have Founding Fathers memes in their bios. The intel community spying on a presidential campaign using fake evidence (incl forged documents) is a big deal to them. 4/x

    Everyone involved lied about their involvement as long as they could. We only learned the DNC paid for the manufactured evidence because of a court order. Comey denied on TV knowing the DNC paid for it, when we have emails from a year earlier proving that he knew. 5/x

    This was true with everyone, from CIA Dir Brennan & Adam Schiff - who were on TV saying they'd seen clear evidence of collusion w/Russia, while admitting under oath behind closed doors that they hadn't - all the way down the line. In the end we learned that it was ALL fake.
    6/x

    At first, many Trump ppl were worried there must be some collusion, because every media & intel agency wouldn't make it up out of nothing. When it was clear that they had made it up, people expected a reckoning, and shed many illusions about their gov't when it didn't happen. 7/x

    We know as fact: a) The Steele dossier was the sole evidence used to justify spying on the Trump campaign, b) The FBI knew the Steele dossier was a DNC op, c) Steele's source told the FBI the info was unserious, d) they did not inform the court of any of this and kept spying. 8/x

    Trump supporters know the collusion case front and back. They went from worrying the collusion must be real, to suspecting it might be fake, to realizing it was a scam, then watched as every institution - agencies, the press, Congress, academia - gaslit them for another year. 9/x

    Worse, collusion was used to scare people away from working in the administration. They knew their entire lives would be investigated. Many quit because they were being bankrupted by legal fees. The DoJ, press, & gov't destroyed lives and actively subverted an elected admin. 10/x

    This is where people whose political identity was largely defined by a naive belief in what they learned in Civics class began to see the outline of a Regime that crossed all institutional boundaries. Because it had stepped out of the shadows to unite against an interloper. 11/x

    GOP propaganda still has many of them thinking in terms of partisan binaries, but A LOT of Trump supporters see that the Regime is not partisan. They all know that the same institutions would have taken opposite sides if it was a Tulsi Gabbard vs Jeb Bush election. 12/x

    It's hard to describe to people on the left (who are used to thinking of gov't as a conspiracy... Watergate, COINTELPRO, WMD, etc) how shocking & disillusioning this was for people who encourage their sons to enlist in the Army, and hate ppl who don't stand for the Anthem. 13/x

    They could have managed the shock if it only involved the government. But the behavior of the corporate press is really what radicalized them. They hate journalists more than they hate any politician or gov't official, because they feel most betrayed by them. 14/x

    The idea that the press is driven by ratings/sensationalism became untenable. If that were true, they'd be all over the Epstein story. The corporate press is the propaganda arm of the Regime they now see in outline. Nothing anyone says will ever make them unsee that, period. 15/x

    This is profoundly disorienting. Many of them don't know for certain whether ballots were faked in November 2020, but they know for absolute certain that the press, the FBI, etc would lie to them if there was. They have every reason to believe that, and it's probably true. 16/x

    They watched the press behave like animals for four years. Tens of millions of people will always see Kavanaugh as a gang rapist, based on nothing, because of CNN. And CNN seems proud of that. They led a lynch mob against a high school kid. They cheered on a summer of riots. 17/x

    They always claimed the media had liberal bias, fine, whatever. They still thought the press would admit truth if they were cornered. Now they don't. It's a different thing to watch them invent stories whole cloth in order to destroy regular lives and spark mass violence. 18/x

    Time Mag told us that during the 2020 riots, there were weekly conference calls involving, among others, leaders of the protests, the local officials who refused to stop them, and media people who framed them for political effect. In Ukraine we call that a color revolution. 19/x

    Throughout the summer, Democrat governors took advantage of COVID to change voting procedures. It wasn't just the mail-ins (they lowered signature matching standards, etc). After the collusion scam, the fake impeachment, Trump ppl expected shenanigans by now. 20/x

    Re: "fake impeachment", we now know that Trump's request for Ukraine to cooperate w/the DOJ regarding Biden's $ activities in Ukraine was in support of an active investigation being pursued by the FBI and Ukraine AG at the time, and so a completely legitimate request. 21/x

    Then you get the Hunter laptop scandal. Big Tech ran a full-on censorship campaign against a major newspaper to protect a political candidate. Period. Everyone knows it, all of the Tech companies now admit it was a "mistake" - but, ya know, the election's over, so who cares? 22/x

    Goes w/o saying, but: If the NY Times had Don Jr's laptop, full of pics of him smoking crack and engaging in group sex, lots of lurid family drama, emails describing direct corruption and backed up by the CEO of the company they were using, the NYT wouldn't have been banned. 23/x

    Think back: Stories about Trump being pissed on by Russian prostitutes and blackmailed by Putin were promoted as fact, and the only evidence was a document paid for by his opposition and disavowed by its source. The NY Post was banned for reporting on true information. 24/x

    The reaction of Trump ppl to all this was not, "no fair!" That's how they felt about Romney's "binders of women" in 2012. This is different. Now they see, correctly, that every institution is captured by ppl who will use any means to exclude them from the political process. 25/x

    And yet they showed up in record numbers to vote. He got 13m more votes than in 2016, 10m more than Clinton got! As election night dragged on, they allowed themselves some hope. But when the four critical swing states (and only those states) went dark at midnight, they knew. 26/x

    Over the ensuing weeks, they got shuffled around by grifters and media scam artists selling them conspiracy theories. They latched onto one, then another increasingly absurd theory as they tried to put a concrete name on something very real. 27/x

    Media & Tech did everything to make things worse. Everything about the election was strange - the changes to procedure, unprecedented mail-in voting, the delays, etc - but rather than admit that and make everything transparent, they banned discussion of it (even in DMs!). 28/x

    Everyone knows that, just as Don Jr's laptop would've been the story of the century, if everything about the election dispute was the same, except the parties were reversed, suspicions about the outcome would've been Taken Very Seriously. See 2016 for proof. 29/x

    Even the courts' refusal of the case gets nowhere w/them, because of how the opposition embraced mass political violence. They'll say, w/good reason: What judge will stick his neck out for Trump knowing he'll be destroyed in the media as a violent mob burns down his house? 30/x

    It's a fact, according to Time Magazine, that mass riots were planned in cities across the country if Trump won. Sure, they were "protests", but they were planned by the same people as during the summer, and everyone knows what it would have meant. Judges have families, too. 31/x

    Forget the ballot conspiracies. It's a fact that governors used COVID to unconstitutionally alter election procedures (the Constitution states that only legislatures can do so) to help Biden to make up for a massive enthusiasm gap by gaming the mail-in ballot system. 32/x

    They knew it was unconstitutional, it's right there in plain English. But they knew the cases wouldn't see court until after the election. And what judge will toss millions of ballots because a governor broke the rules? The threat of mass riots wasn't implied, it was direct. 33/x

    a) The entrenched bureaucracy & security state subverted Trump from Day 1, b) The press is part of the operation, c) Election rules were changed, d) Big Tech censors opposition, e) Political violence is legitimized & encouraged, f) Trump is banned from social media. 34/x

    They were led down some rabbit holes, but they are absolutely right that their gov't is monopolized by a Regime that believes they are beneath representation, and will observe no limits to keep them getting it. Trump fans should be happy he lost; it might've kept him alive. /end
    Whatever your hatred of Trump and his supporters, that observers view of America is the same as mine. Your Country is irretrievably broken, and the contempt you feel for them is mirrored: they will never trust you and the federal and media institutions you now control, ever again.
    Last edited by Parihaka; 10 Jul 21,, 08:11.
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

    Leibniz

  • #2
    come on, you're supposed to talk about derp-state and how Trump singlehandedly broke the pedo operation being run out of a pizza shop, and end it with a "we are the storm"...

    Your Country is irretrievably broken, and the contempt you feel for them is mirrored: they will never trust you and the federal and media institutions you now control, ever again.
    take the CCP/Russian agitprop elsewhere. I remember you spewing this as early as 2012. betting against America is stupid.
    Last edited by astralis; 10 Jul 21,, 15:47.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
      To counterbalance what is now a left/extreme-left board


      Whatever your hatred of Trump and his supporters, that observers view of America is the same as mine. Your Country is irretrievably broken, and the contempt you feel for them is mirrored: they will never trust you and the federal and media institutions you now control, ever again.
      Yeah yeah, heard this shit before. Next you'll proclaim that January 6th was a tourist junket.

      As Asty said, peddle it somewhere else.
      Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by astralis View Post
        come on, you're supposed to talk about derp-state and how Trump singlehandedly broke the pedo operation being run out of a pizza shop, and end it with a "we are the storm"...



        take the CCP/Russian agitprop elsewhere. I remember you spewing this as early as 2012. betting against America is stupid.
        Hey Asty, how's working in the Green Zone?

        Click image for larger version

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        Source, from WAPO before the 'check your source' NPC's chip in.


        What you remember from 2012 is me talking about Obama pivoting to Asia, and you telling what a stunning success it would be.


        This led China to view the entire enterprise, not just its military components, as part of a broader effort at containment. For example, when the TPP was finalized in 2015, Obama said, “TPP allows America — and not countries like China — to write the rules of the road in the 21st century.” Even trade deals were being presented as a way to counter the threat from China. It is no mystery why Beijing believed U.S. strategy in the region centered on containing China’s rise. The United States publicly said this is exactly what it was doing.
        ADVERTISEMENT
        It didn’t have to be this way. One obvious opportunity for a different approach was China’s invitation for the United States to join the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB). The United States refused to participate and even objected to the U.K. joining the AIIB. As Leland Lazarus explained for The Diplomat, this decision was an enormous error. If the United States had pursued the Trans-Pacific Partnership by publicly emphasizing it hoped China would one day join while also joining the AIIB, the entire perception of any pivot in Beijing would have been radically different. Instead of appearing to be a strategy to undermine China it would simply appear to be an effort to take full advantage of the economic opportunities presented by Asia’s dynamic economic growth. Instead, the United States chose a path that heightened military tensions and missed out on economic opportunities.
        John Ford, The Diplomat


        I also recall me saying something along the lines of the democrats racially divisive policy under Obama would turn to custard, and create division

        “What happened to you?”

        It’s a question I get a lot on Twitter. “When did you become so far right?” “Why have you become a white supremacist, transphobic, misogynistic eugenicist?” Or, of course: “See! I told you who he really was! Just take the hood off, Sully!” It’s trolling, mainly. And it’s a weapon for some in the elite to wield against others in the kind of emotional blackmail spiral that was first pioneered on elite college campuses. But it’s worth answering, a year after I was booted from New York Magazine for my unacceptable politics. Because it seems to me that the dynamic should really be the other way round.

        The real question is: what happened to you?

        The CRT debate is just the latest squall in a tempest brewing and building for five years or so. And, yes, some of the liberal critiques of a Fox News hyped campaign are well taken. Is this a wedge issue for the GOP? Of course it is. Are they using the term “critical race theory” as a cynical, marketing boogeyman? Of course they are. Are some dog whistles involved? A few. Are crude bans on public servants’ speech dangerous? Absolutely. Do many of the alarmists know who Derrick Bell was? Of course not....
        Snip
        ...We are going through the greatest radicalization of the elites since the 1960s. This isn’t coming from the ground up. It’s being imposed ruthlessly from above, marshaled with a fusillade of constant MSM propaganda, and its victims are often the poor and the black and the brown. It nearly lost the Democrats the last election. Only Biden’s seeming moderation, the wisdom of black Democratic primary voters,and the profound ugliness of Trump wrested the presidency from a vicious demagogue, whose contempt for our system of government appears ever greater the more we find out about his term in office.
        Andrew Sullivan, substack

        You might also recall me talking about the subversion of MSM, or legacy media, or whatever else you might wish to call it.
        In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

        Leibniz

        Comment


        • #5
          Refreshing retort, Pari. Nice to see you have not lost the conviction of your beliefs.
          Chimo

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
            Refreshing retort, Pari. Nice to see you have not lost the conviction of your beliefs.
            Sir, a pleasure as always to talk with you :)
            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

            Leibniz

            Comment


            • #7
              pari,

              Hey Asty, how's working in the Green Zone?
              try again, I don't work in that zone.

              What you remember from 2012 is me talking about Obama pivoting to Asia, and you telling what a stunning success it would be.
              nope; your ding-dong stuff was right after Obama won in 2012, where you said that you would advocate for NZ to turn to China from now on.

              the reason why I remember it so well all these years later was my utter shock that someone I respected at the time would say something like this. it'd be like OoE here revealing that he was Celion Dion's #1 fanboi after all these years.

              given Xi Jinping's predilection for using New Zealand as a testbed for political warfare techniques and breaking into New Zealand professor homes -- Anne Marie Brady ring a bell? -- let alone the Xinjiang concentration camps, I mean job re-education centers, I wonder if you've really thought through that genius comment since then.

              then again, you've gone from there to "US derp-state is out to get Trump!" and "US is irretrievably broken!", repeating Putin agitprop and CCP agitprop respectively, so I guess not.
              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

              Comment


              • #8
                pari,



                try again, I don't work in that zone.
                As usual, nuance go whoosh

                nope; your ding-dong stuff was right after Obama won in 2012, where you said that you would advocate for NZ to turn to China from now on.

                the reason why I remember it so well all these years later was my utter shock that someone I respected at the time would say something like this. it'd be like OoE here revealing that he was Celion Dion's #1 fanboi after all these years.

                given Xi Jinping's predilection for using New Zealand as a testbed for political warfare techniques and breaking into New Zealand professor homes -- Anne Marie Brady ring a bell? -- let alone the Xinjiang concentration camps, I mean job re-education centers, I wonder if you've really thought through that genius comment since then.
                Well, partial recall is better than none I guess.

                It was after Obama declared the Pivot to Asia, a ramping up of military containment of China.
                An historically proven half-arsed piece of nonsense that if I were Machiavellian, would have described as a deliberate attempt to destabilize the region. You were IIRC heavily politically and professionally invested in it at the time.
                I certainly advocated a distancing from the US, the results (not because of my advocation, but NZ's path being obvious at the time) being the current differences between Australia's relationship to China vs our own.
                As for China's camps, genocides, theft and spying, well gosh and golly, do you think that's only just started? Or was it a deplorable reality when Nixon went to China?

                then again, you've gone from there to "US derp-state is out to get Trump!" and "US is irretrievably broken!", repeating Putin agitprop and CCP agitprop respectively, so I guess not.
                Yes please, lets turn this thread into yet another I HATE TRUMP and YOU'S ALL COMMIES and INSURECSHUNISTS thread. It's not like you've got enough of those already.


                In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                Leibniz

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                  Yes please, lets turn this thread into yet another I HATE TRUMP and YOU'S ALL COMMIES and INSURECSHUNISTS thread. It's not like you've got enough of those already
                  I think you mean "Nazis".

                  "Commies" is the insult hurled by conservatives at anybody Left of hunting the homeless for sport.

                  (Also "socialists" and "Marxists")
                  Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by astralis View Post
                    it'd be like ooe here revealing that he was celion dion's #1 fanboi after all these years.
                    You take that back!!!!!!!
                    Chimo

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                      You take that back!!!!!!!
                      First step in the recovery process is admitting it Sir
                      Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                        To counterbalance what is now a left/extreme-left board:
                        and that is where you lost me and didn't bother to read what you said. As always a right wing conservative feels everyone to the left of them, or who don't share their opinions, must be a leftist or worse. No point in bothering with this thread anymore.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TopHatter View Post

                          I think you mean "Nazis".

                          "Commies" is the insult hurled by conservatives at anybody Left of hunting the homeless for sport.

                          (Also "socialists" and "Marxists")
                          By all means.
                          There is a strong correlation between the CCP and the Nazis, totalitarianism mixed with working with capitalists.
                          The commie comment of course alludes to this
                          Originally posted by astralis View Post
                          CCP agitprop
                          I must say it's a blast from the past working in a nearly fully functional VBulletin environment, though 'tis taking me a while to dredge up the old shorthand from the indexed part of my brain.

                          Nice.
                          In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                          Leibniz

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Ooo, look at the funny troll.
                            I remember him.
                            He used to be funnier.
                            Trust me?
                            I'm an economist!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                              There is a strong correlation between the CCP and the Nazis, totalitarianism mixed with working with capitalists.
                              Eh, that's a real stretch there. Both totalitarian, sure. Both working with capitalists...um, ok. But unless you're a complete hermit kingdom like North Korea, working with capitalists isn't a particularly distinguishing feature. The Soviet Union worked with capitalists when they needed to.

                              Unless of course you were shooting for the "Nazis were Leftists before they called themselves National Socialists" angle?
                              Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

                              Comment

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