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2021 Trump-Incited Insurrection at Capitol Building

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  • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
    Thinking about the impact of this riot on Trump's legacy and reading some of the comparisons to Nixon something occoured to me that I will submit for consideration to Americans here wiht some sense of history. This isn't and especially 'deep' point, but it might cheer those who are not fans of Trump.

    American Presidents generally leave deep legacies that take years to play out and provide decades (or occasionally centuries) of debate. However, that is the realm of historians & the historically engaged. For most folks (even us ejumucated types) Presidents bring with them an immediate association. Sometimes its one thing, maybe two and occasionally three. Play 'President word association' and see what comes up.

    JFK: Young, Jackie, assasinated;
    LBJ: Great Society, Vietnam;
    Nixon: China, Watergate;
    Ford: Pardoned Nixon;
    Carter: One term failure (maybe Camp David for the smarty pants);
    Reagan: Morning in America, old (maybe rebuilt military or something similar);
    Bush 1: Vice Presdent, Iraq War (maybe Berlin Wall falls);
    Clinton: Monica, Hilary;
    Bush 2: 9/11, Afghanistan & Iraq wars;
    Obama: First black President, hope & change.

    It will vary from person to person, but I'm betting that if you did this on a broad basis a lot of those associations would pop up.

    So, what will Donnie get? What will people not yet born immediately associate with Trump? I'm going with: MAGA, COVID, Capitol riot (maybe twitter somewhere).

    Donnie is going to be red caps, 400,000 dead Amedricans & the first hostile mob to break into the Capitol since Napoleon. Oh, and a bare chested guy with face paint & buffalo horns.

    So, as you deal with the terrible fallout of the Trump Presidency remember that long after we are all gone Donnie will be the COVID & Riot guy. The President who tweeted while America burned.
    Most American Presidents are forgotten. Just to pull a tidbit about how many college kids remember LBJ:
    Most American presidents destined to fade from nation’s memory, study suggests | The Source | Washington University in St. Louis (wustl.edu)
    In 1974, nearly all college students recalled Johnson and his ordinal position (36), but by 1991, the proportion remembering him dropped to 53 percent and by 2009, it plummeted to 20 percent.
    If America maintains any consistency, Trump will largely be forgotten except in association with Obama, who likely will be remembered as the First Black President (and for nothing else). Clinton, W, Bush 1 definitely will be forgotten, Reagan will almost certainly be forgotten, Carter is already mostly gone, and hopefully JFK fades into obscurity too.

    Until that time, my guess is that he is just remembered as "fascist," "disaster," "Twitter," "MAGA," and "drain the swamp"
    Last edited by GVChamp; 16 Jan 21,, 14:30.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

    Comment


    • GVChamp,
      "Obama, who likely will be remembered as the First Black President (and for nothing else)."

      Only if the GOPers repeal the ACA.
      Otherwise, he gets FDR status.
      Trust me?
      I'm an economist!

      Comment


      • Most American Presidents are forgotten. Just to pull a tidbit about how many college kids remember LBJ:
        in the long-run, we are all dead...:-)

        in the short to medium term, that is what matters.

        and we're still living in the legacies that FDR and LBJ bequeathed us...and yes, Ronald Reagan as well. for that matter, Bush Jr too -- I really doubt anyone will sign on for a ground war in the Middle East or Central Asia for a long time.

        it'll be... interesting... to see which portions of Trumpism will live on, because Trump is a one big repudiation of Reagan.

        If America maintains any consistency, Trump will largely be forgotten except in association with Obama, who likely will be remembered as the First Black President (and for nothing else).
        most people in any meaningful timeframe will remember one big thing about a President. it'll probably be ACA for Obama.
        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

        Comment


        • DOR,

          Otherwise, he gets FDR status.
          nah. even LBJ doesn't get "FDR" status, and he did a LOT more than Obama.

          Obama pushed through two big things -- stimulus and the ACA, and the first wasn't a policy goal of the Democrats, it was a response to a disaster.

          Obama, and Congressional Dems even more so, were consistently blinkered as to their GOP opposition. Obama, too, was by nature a (small-c) conservative President whom admired the nature of HW Bush. "don't do stupid stuff" as the motto. not exactly stirring.

          It was darkly funny to see all the Republicans, both here and elsewhere, screech about Obama the Dictator when Obama so often sat on his hands, even while his Congressional allies were BEGGING him for help, or looking to him for leadership.

          under his political leadership, the Democratic Party was completely hollowed out-- because Obama himself owed nothing to the Party, and defeated the Party establishment in '08-- and we're still dealing with the consequences of that today.

          maybe all of this would have been worth it if there had been a vast policy transformation like LBJ's, but...in hindsight, it's hard to say that the ACA by itself was worth the last 4 years of devastation and 4 years of paralysis before that.
          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
            AR, what happens in your country affects the wider world. What FP your country adopts, will resonate in Delhi as in other capitals. As an Indian, I keep my eyes and ears open to all possible people who come into the US administration and leave. This way I make my opinions. If I'm mistaken, please correct me and others. We share our thoughts and learn. You don't have to comment on Indian politics as US is not dependent on India for weapons, business or anything else. But we have to look at what's happening in US, it affects us in some way or the other.
            Oracle, fine....pay attention. See what is happening. But like Big Fella says, don't argue with me about what is happening within my country because you don't understand what is going on.

            You aren't living it.

            I know the expression "When America Sneezes, the World Catches Cold". But don't try to be the doctor from a distance.



            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
            Mark Twain

            Comment


            • Capitol Police arrested a man with an ‘unauthorized’ inauguration credential and a gun at a security checkpoint.

              The U.S. Capitol Police arrested a man at a security checkpoint in Washington on Friday after he flashed what an officer described as an “unauthorized” inauguration credential and a search of his truck found an unregistered handgun and more than 500 rounds of ammunition, the authorities said.

              A federal law enforcement official said that the man, Wesley A. Beeler, 31, worked as a contractor, and that his credential was not fake, but was not recognized by the police officer. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the arrest.

              Mr. Beeler’s father, Paul Beeler, said in an interview that his son was part of a security team working alongside the Capitol Police and the National Guard, and that his son must have simply left his personal gun in his truck. Wesley Beeler has an active private security license in Virginia and was approved to have a handgun, shotgun or patrol rifle while on assignments, according to a state website.

              The arrest comes as law enforcement officials have tried to fortify Washington ahead of Inauguration Day on Wednesday, when they fear that extremists emboldened by the attack on the Capitol by President Trump’s supporters on Jan. 6 could seek to cause violence. A militarized “green zone” is being established downtown, National Guard members are flooding the city, and a metal fence has gone up around the Capitol grounds in advance of the swearing-in of President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr.

              Mr. Beeler, of Front Royal, Va., had driven up to a security checkpoint less than half a mile from the Capitol grounds on Friday evening and presented “an unauthorized inauguration credential,” according to a statement from a Capitol Police officer filed in a District of Columbia court on Saturday. The officer, Roger Dupont, said that he had checked the credential against a list and found that it did not give Mr. Beeler authority to enter the restricted area.

              Officers searched his truck, which had several gun-related bumper stickers, and found a loaded Glock pistol, 509 rounds for the pistol and 21 shotgun shells, the police said. Mr. Beeler had admitted having the Glock in the truck’s center console when he was asked if there were weapons in the car, they said.

              Mr. Beeler, who could not be reached for comment, was charged with five crimes, including possessing a weapon and ammunition in Washington without having it registered as required. The documents filed in court and an incident report from the city’s Metropolitan Police Department do not shed light on why the man had tried to access a restricted area, nor do they provide more details about the credential the police say he presented.

              Paul Beeler said his son, a father of four, had recently been working as a security guard on the Capitol grounds, and that he had held other security jobs over the years. “He was proud of the work he was doing with the police and the National Guard,” the father said.

              Asked if he thought his son supported a peaceful transition of power, Paul Beeler said, “That’s the reason he’s there.”


              The elder Beeler said he had grown worried about his son when he did not return his text messages on Friday night, and that he had called him on Saturday morning, when he thought his son would be returning to Virginia after his shift. He and his wife discovered that Mr. Beeler had been arrested when she received a call from a reporter, he said.

              Law enforcement officials have said they are alarmed by chatter among far-right groups and other racist extremists who are threatening to target the nation’s capital to protest Mr. Biden’s electoral victory. Federal agencies have tried to keep some people who breached the Capitol with weapons earlier this month from returning to the city, including by restricting their ability to board commercial planes, according to an administration official.

              Mr. Biden has resisted calls to move the inauguration ceremony indoors for the sake of safety. His inauguration committee had already been planning a scaled-back celebration with virtual components because of the coronavirus.
              ___________

              This whole story is a collection of contradictions...
              Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

                Oracle, fine....pay attention. See what is happening. But like Big Fella says, don't argue with me about what is happening within my country because you don't understand what is going on.

                You aren't living it.

                I know the expression "When America Sneezes, the World Catches Cold". But don't try to be the doctor from a distance.


                Careful, citizenship and residency do not come with insight.
                It is perfectly possible to know quite a lot about something without being an actual part of it.
                Indeed, it may even be desirable.

                Not saying that's necessarily the case here, but the gross generalization isn't valid.
                Trust me?
                I'm an economist!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

                  Oracle, fine....pay attention. See what is happening. But like Big Fella says, don't argue with me about what is happening within my country because you don't understand what is going on.

                  You aren't living it.

                  I know the expression "When America Sneezes, the World Catches Cold". But don't try to be the doctor from a distance.
                  When did I ever say I know more than you or I am living it. Infact, it is some of you guys who made me realise that even YouTube has far-right channels, which I used to think was a place for having fun.
                  Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DOR View Post

                    Careful, citizenship and residency do not come with insight.
                    It is perfectly possible to know quite a lot about something without being an actual part of it.
                    Indeed, it may even be desirable.

                    Not saying that's necessarily the case here, but the gross generalization isn't valid.
                    Agree with this. There are nuances of any nation that an outsider is unlikely ot ever come to terms with, but there are also things we can understand & engage with to a fairly high degree if we inform ourselves. I am regularly shocked at the levels of ignorance, willful or otherwise, that I encounter among Americans. Not so frequently on this website (these days anyway), but certainly elsewhere. Every nation has people who blind themselves to even basic factual information about their own societies. An informed outsider may see what they choose not to.

                    Of course, that requires the outsider to be informed & engaged.
                    sigpic

                    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                      DOR,



                      nah. even LBJ doesn't get "FDR" status, and he did a LOT more than Obama.

                      Obama pushed through two big things -- stimulus and the ACA, and the first wasn't a policy goal of the Democrats, it was a response to a disaster.

                      Obama, and Congressional Dems even more so, were consistently blinkered as to their GOP opposition. Obama, too, was by nature a (small-c) conservative President whom admired the nature of HW Bush. "don't do stupid stuff" as the motto. not exactly stirring.

                      It was darkly funny to see all the Republicans, both here and elsewhere, screech about Obama the Dictator when Obama so often sat on his hands, even while his Congressional allies were BEGGING him for help, or looking to him for leadership.

                      under his political leadership, the Democratic Party was completely hollowed out-- because Obama himself owed nothing to the Party, and defeated the Party establishment in '08-- and we're still dealing with the consequences of that today.

                      maybe all of this would have been worth it if there had been a vast policy transformation like LBJ's, but...in hindsight, it's hard to say that the ACA by itself was worth the last 4 years of devastation and 4 years of paralysis before that.
                      These aren't really mutually exclusive. Obama was largely incompetent, particularly during his first term, and spent a great deal of time in his second term attempting to secure a legacy with over-reaching executive actions.

                      I also disagree with his characterization as "small-c consevative." He didn't want to repeat certain mistakes of the last 2 Democratic Presidents (Carter, Clinton) who were seen as working poorly with their legislative majorities, particularly due to their own arrogance. This isn't conservative behavior, it is feckless leadership, which is what you should expect when you elect an inexperienced junior Senator with little to his name besides fundraising skill and media adoration.

                      But, he'll still be remembered. Over the short and medium term, sure, I'd agree with you on Obama-care being remembered. Over the long-term, as the first black President, as the US has historically, and likely will remain, super race-conscious. That's more than most Post-War Presidents, as maybe only Reagan and JFK will similarly be remembered over any time horizon.

                      Also, we're still living in Dubya's world. We may not be signing up for another 200k soldiers invading somewhere, but we're living in permanent war-time spending, growing surveillance, and aggressive bombing of non-state actors. That's a total reversal of the 1990s peace dividend, end of history, maybe fight some genocide.
                      "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post

                        These aren't really mutually exclusive. Obama was largely incompetent, particularly during his first term, and spent a great deal of time in his second term attempting to secure a legacy with over-reaching executive actions.

                        I also disagree with his characterization as "small-c consevative." He didn't want to repeat certain mistakes of the last 2 Democratic Presidents (Carter, Clinton) who were seen as working poorly with their legislative majorities, particularly due to their own arrogance. This isn't conservative behavior, it is feckless leadership, which is what you should expect when you elect an inexperienced junior Senator with little to his name besides fundraising skill and media adoration.

                        But, he'll still be remembered. Over the short and medium term, sure, I'd agree with you on Obama-care being remembered. Over the long-term, as the first black President, as the US has historically, and likely will remain, super race-conscious. That's more than most Post-War Presidents, as maybe only Reagan and JFK will similarly be remembered over any time horizon.

                        Also, we're still living in Dubya's world. We may not be signing up for another 200k soldiers invading somewhere, but we're living in permanent war-time spending, growing surveillance, and aggressive bombing of non-state actors. That's a total reversal of the 1990s peace dividend, end of history, maybe fight some genocide.
                        Just for the record how old were you when Carter was elected so one can judge your insight as useful for the time?

                        Comment


                        • Voters at the time considered Carter's performance horrible. He lost re-election by more than any other incumbent since Herbert Hoover, and left office with approval ratings similar to George W Bush.
                          "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post

                            Agree with this. There are nuances of any nation that an outsider is unlikely ot ever come to terms with, but there are also things we can understand & engage with to a fairly high degree if we inform ourselves. I am regularly shocked at the levels of ignorance, willful or otherwise, that I encounter among Americans. Not so frequently on this website (these days anyway), but certainly elsewhere. Every nation has people who blind themselves to even basic factual information about their own societies. An informed outsider may see what they choose not to.

                            Of course, that requires the outsider to be informed & engaged.
                            I have forgotten how to multiquote so this will have to do....

                            Oracle, DOR, Pete....and any others,

                            My point is observe my country, see what is happening, do some research and, please, have an opinion and share it.

                            But when I, or another American who pays attention and realizes what is happening, tells you that you are likely incorrect on your point of view not keep fighting me.

                            If your opinions are formed by some YouTube poster from Upper Eastern Slobovia (and no offense meant to Upper Eastern Slobovia) and mine are by Reuters, AP, UPI,the Washington Post, and many other newspapers....

                            Well forgive me if I don't consider your opinion to be worthwhile.

                            I wish no one ill will but I've been plugge dinto American politics for 50 years so I have some background on which to base my opinions.
                            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                            Mark Twain

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                              Voters at the time considered Carter's performance horrible. He lost re-election by more than any other incumbent since Herbert Hoover, and left office with approval ratings similar to George W Bush.
                              You didn't answer his question.
                              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                              Mark Twain

                              Comment


                              • These aren't really mutually exclusive. Obama was largely incompetent, particularly during his first term
                                no, he had a pollyannish worldview -- he bought into his own propaganda of there being no red states or blue states.

                                it's why he repeatedly offered deals with the GOP that the GOP was frankly even more stupid not to take.

                                it's why he talked about "elections having consequences" and "the Republican fever will break after my re-election". complete misread of his opposition.


                                and spent a great deal of time in his second term attempting to secure a legacy with over-reaching executive actions.
                                by then, it was all he could do. as for over-reaching, well, you've seen Trump in action, so comparatively speaking...

                                I also disagree with his characterization as "small-c consevative." He didn't want to repeat certain mistakes of the last 2 Democratic Presidents (Carter, Clinton) who were seen as working poorly with their legislative majorities, particularly due to their own arrogance. This isn't conservative behavior, it is feckless leadership, which is what you should expect when you elect an inexperienced junior Senator with little to his name besides fundraising skill and media adoration.
                                if he wasn't a "small-c conservative", he would have hit that executive order button in his first 100 days, until it broke, instead of waiting til mid-way through his second administration to do it. again, his own legislative allies were begging him to do it -years- before he finally did it.

                                and yeah, he did read up on how Hillarycare failed, or how Carter had failed -- he indeed did mention over-reach as precisely what he wanted to avoid, and easy for him to do because it fit within his own worldview so well. he essentially let Pelosi and especially Reid run the show for ACA passage, which let the public be subjected to -months- of sausage-making.

                                in the end, at least it DID pass, so he didn't do a self-own like the way Carter did. that would have been truly feckless.

                                his foreign policy is what I'd describe as "feckless", 'tho at least there it is not "disastrous" (ie, Bush II) or "outright wins for our adversaries" (Trump).

                                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                                Comment

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