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  • #91
    Well one side benefit of what went on is that Sen. Hawley of Missouri has pretty much screwed the pooch as far as his 2024 ambitions. He is being sliced and diced up and down in Missouri by financial backers and his mentor Sen. Danforth who now feels he made a big mistake.


    JEFFERSON CITY — One of U.S. Sen. Josh Hawley’s first major backers expressed buyer’s remorse late Thursday, issuing a statement blasting Missouri’s junior senator for his role in objecting to President-elect Joe Biden’s election victory.

    Joplin businessman David Humphreys, whose family has contributed millions of dollars to Hawley’s election efforts since 2016, said the Senate should censure Hawley “for provoking yesterday’s riots in our nation’s capital,” the Missouri Independent reported Thursday night.

    Humphreys said Hawley revealed himself as a “political opportunist” who has “shown his true colors as an anti-democracy populist by supporting Trump’s false claim of a ‘stolen election.’”

    Hawley was the first senator to say he was objecting to Biden’s victory over outgoing President Donald Trump.

    Hawley was photographed raising his fist at a crowd of pro-Trump protesters prior to the Wednesday breach at the Capitol. Five people, including a Capitol police officer, died in Wednesday’s violence.

    Humphreys’ statement said: “In October 2016 I publicly voiced my opposition to Donald Trump in the NY Times saying ‘At some point, you have to look in the mirror and recognize that you cannot possibly justify support for Trump to your children…’
    https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...rce=in-article

    JEFFERSON CITY — Josh Hawley grabbed national headlines, cheers from supporters of President Donald Trump and effusive praise from the White House when he became the first member of the U.S. Senate to announce he would object to electoral votes of at least one state won by President-elect Joe Biden.

    A week later, Hawley was lying low — with critics labeling him a political opportunist whose efforts were partly responsible for the mayhem that engulfed the U.S. Capitol.

    Hawley’s change in fortunes happened quickly. Hours after he was photographed raising his fist in support of protesters who had gathered in Washington at Trump’s urging, many of them swarmed the “people’s house,” vandalizing and ransacking government property and terrorizing lawmakers and staff. Five people, including a Capitol Police officer, died.

    In the wake of the violence, which forced the suspension of the electoral vote count, many Republicans who said they would object to some states’ results changed their minds, clearly shaken by the unprecedented assault on democratic governance unleashed by Trump’s minions.

    But not Hawley.

    The 41-year-old junior senator from Missouri pushed forward, his objection to Pennsylvania’s electoral votes helping drag what usually is a ceremonial process into early Thursday. In the end, only six other senators voted with him. Hawley, not even halfway through his first term, was widely excoriated for pointless obstructionism, with some critics going so far as to say Hawley had helped incite a riot and had blood on his hands.

    Now, former U.S. Sen. John Danforth, who was largely responsible for Hawley’s meteoric rise, is calling Hawley his “worst mistake.” David Humphreys, a major GOP donor in Missouri who poured money into Hawley’s first statewide race, says he should be censured by the U.S. Senate. Simon & Schuster canceled plans to publish Hawley’s planned book on Big Tech, citing the “deadly insurrection” at the Capitol.

    https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...home-top-story

    Comment


    • #92
      “The 75,000,000 great American Patriots who voted for me, AMERICA FIRST, and MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN, will have a GIANT VOICE long into the future. They will not be disrespected or treated unfairly in any way, shape or form!!!” Trump posted to Twitter on Friday morning, in his first written tweet since getting temporarily locked out of his account for openly egging on the deadly riot in Washington, DC.
      This is the truly scary thing here, much more so than the a-holes who invaded the Capitol. After watching his conduct over the last 4 years, 75 million people still decided that they wanted him to continue for 4 more years. If an election were to be held today, after everyone saw what happened at the Capitol, I still doubt that number would come down by a whole lot. These people aren't going anywhere, and nobody has any idea how to reach them and make them understand their folly or try to understand what made so many cast their lot with Trump in the first place. Blaming everything on racism and white supremacy might make for good sound bytes on CNN and MSNBC but if there actually were 75 million white supremacists in the USA, the country would be well and truly f####d.
      Last edited by Firestorm; 08 Jan 21,, 23:57.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
        This is the truly scary thing here, much more so than the a-holes who invaded the Capitol. After watching his conduct over the last 4 years, 75 million people still decided that they wanted him to continue for 4 more years. If an election were to be held today, after everyone saw what happened at the Capitol, I still doubt that number would come down by a whole lot. These people aren't going anywhere, and nobody has any idea how to reach them and make them understand their folly or try to understand what made so many cast their lot with Trump in the first place. Blaming everything on racism and white supremacy might make for good sound bytes on CNN and MSNBC but if there actually were 75 million white supremacists in the USA, the country would be well and truly f####d.
        I don't think they can be reached beyond a small number. I look at the far right, alt-right, and whatever else you want to call them this way. There are three groups needed to make them happen. One is the finance guys with the multi millions of dollars. Next is the management/pr guys like Graham, Cruz, Hawley, Nunes, McCarthy, Russ Limburger, Fox News, et al. Third are the foot soldiers you saw swarming the Capital.

        Foot soldiers are a dime a dozen and can be sacrificed endlessly and usually are. However, they are not the ones you want to stop. The best group, and the hardest nut to crack would be the finance guys who are well insulated. Also the management/pr group is also pretty well insulated enough so they can use the plausible denial trick. I'll put Trump more into management than finance. Now if a management guy strays off to far to be comfortable then the others will throw a bone to everyone by tossing them out on their ass to protect their ass. Trump is getting tossed some now how far remains to be seen. Hawley is definitely being thrown to the dogs to protect all the other guys. See, we got rid of him aren't you proud of us. That is the game.

        Comment


        • #94

          Originally posted by Bloomberg_News

          Biden Says the U.S. Needs a Republican Party That's 'Principled and Strong'
          Published on 08 January 2021



          President-elect Joe Biden said Friday he'd be “honored” to have Vice President Mike Pence at his inauguration on January 20th, saying he's "welcome" to attend.

          But Biden strongly expressed that he didn't feel the same way about Trump, calling it a "good thing" earlier in the news conference that he will not be showing up.

          The president-elect's comments came hours after Trump tweeted that he planned to skip Biden’s inauguration, becoming the first president in more than 150 years — and just the fourth in U.S. history — to do so.

          Referring to Pence, Biden said, "as much as we can stick to what have been the historical precedents of how and the circumstances in which an administration changes should be maintained."

          Biden also had strong words for Trump's stalwart supporters in Congress saying "they're responsible, as well, for what happened."

          The president-elect specifically mentioned Texas Senator Ted Cruz and Missouri Senator Josh Hawley, both Republicans, saying they're both part of "the big lie." And he said their propensity to repeat fasehoods over and over again until the public believes them is akin to Nazi propaganda efforts.

          Biden stopped short of suggesting Cruz and Hawley resign, saying he thinks "they should just be flat beaten the next time they run."

          "I think the American public has a real good clear look at who they are. They are part of the big lie," Biden said.

          .

          ...
          Last edited by JRT; 09 Jan 21,, 01:38.
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          • #95
            Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
            This is the truly scary thing here, much more so than the a-holes who invaded the Capitol. After watching his conduct over the last 4 years, 75 million people still decided that they wanted him to continue for 4 more years. If an election were to be held today, after everyone saw what happened at the Capitol, I still doubt that number would come down by a whole lot. These people aren't going anywhere, and nobody has any idea how to reach them and make them understand their folly or try to understand what made so many cast their lot with Trump in the first place. Blaming everything on racism and white supremacy might make for good sound bytes on CNN and MSNBC but if there actually were 75 million white supremacists in the USA, the country would be well and truly f####d.
            75 million? If it wasn't for his joke handling of Covid.... he would have been re-elected. Let that sink in.

            Comment


            • #96
              Senior Trump Official: We Were Wrong, He’s a ‘Fascist’

              On Friday afternoon, 48 hours after the U.S. Capitol was stormed by violent insurrectionists encouraged by Donald Trump in an attempt to overthrow the government in protest of his election loss, a senior member of his administration spoke to me while he was driving to work.

              “This is confirmation of so much that everyone has said for years now — things that a lot of us thought were hyperbolic. We’d say, ‘Trump’s not a fascist,’ or ‘He’s not a wannabe dictator.’ Now, it’s like, ‘Well, what do you even say in response to that now?’”

              For four years, people like this official — lifelong Republican operatives — have convinced themselves that Trump’s obvious faults were worth tolerating if it meant implementing a conservative policy agenda. These officials believed the benefits of remaking the courts with conservative justices, or passing tax reform, outweighed the risks that a Trump presidency posed to democracy and to the reputation of the country in the world. Now, at the eleventh hour, with twelve days left before Joe Biden is sworn into office, it’s clear to some that it was always a delusion.

              “This is like a plot straight out of the later, sucky seasons of House of Cards where they just go full evil and say, ‘Let’s spark mass protests and start wars and whatever,’” the senior administration official said.

              “I went through Access Hollywood, Charlottesville — all of these insane things. There’s some degree of growing accustomed to the craziness. It’s not like my heart is racing, like, Oh, God, how am I supposed to react to this? It’s just more that I’m depressed. For people who devoted years of their lives to dealing with the insanity in an attempt to advance a policy agenda that you believe in, all of that has been wiped out. The legacy of the Trump administration is going to be that the president sparked an insurrection and people died because he tried his best to not abide by the Constitution and the tradition of a peaceful transition of power that’s been the norm since our founding. Nothing else is even going to be a side note.”

              Trump’s world has grown ever smaller as the damage he inflicts on the United States continues to swell. Wednesday’s attack on the Capitol, which left five dead, including a police officer, prompted resignations in the administration and calls for Trump to do the same and threats — from Democratic and Republican lawmakers — of a second impeachment as well as vaguer discussions about the 25th Amendment. Trump is an increasingly symbolic figure — Norma Desmond with the nuclear codes and sycophantic butlers in his ears on a West Wing Sunset Boulevard soundstage. With no power left to grab, many staffers spent the weeks following November 3 making themselves scarce, plotting their post-White House careers, avoiding the president’s calls.

              But many others are keeping their heads down and keeping their jobs, citing, among other self-serving interests, a desire to remain on their health care plans, according to my interviews with staffers. Others justify their continued employment by citing the demands of the continuity of government.

              “There’s not a single person I have talked to at any level, from 23-year-old assistants to members of the Cabinet, who are not disgusted and ashamed with what has happened,” the senior administration official said, adding that the conversations among remaining officials were about how to handle the next twelve days before Joe Biden’s administration — and whether to continue to be a part of the transition of power at all. “It’s different for everybody. If you’re a regular domestic policy staffer in the West Wing or the EEOB, the implications of you quitting are different than if you’re a senior national security official, or you’re tasked with contributing to the continuity of government.”

              “We are in a terrible spot,” the official said, “You can’t just say, ‘Well, this is outrageous and I quit’ in this situation.”

              Trump’s inner circle has contracted amid the self-created chaos and carnage. For this reason, resignations have not had much of an effect on him directly. “He may not even notice,” one adviser said. “People aren’t around to begin with. There aren’t policy meetings with the president and eight or ten people in there anymore.”

              Advisers have expressed concern and anger over Mark Meadows, the chief of staff, whose actions have been perceived as an effort to secure employment with Trump in his post-presidency, perhaps at the Trump Organization. “Jared has been telling people, ‘Don’t even deal with him anymore,’” one adviser said. “Mark’s responsible for bringing kook after crazy after conniver after Rudy into the West Wing.” (“This is completely false,” Avi Berkowitz, Jared Kushner’s spokesman, said in a tweet responding to this article, “Jared has never said that.”)A former senior White House official said, “Morale plummeted under him, huge mistakes were made — and now he’s scrambling to stick around after. He’s a dishonest asshole who pretends to be this religious Southern gentleman. Fuck that.”

              The senior administration official put it this way: “The only way it gets to this point are a thousand really bad small decisions. The first time Sidney Powell calls the White House switchboard and is allowed to speak to the president, the next thing you know she and others are in the West Wing — these are areas where the chief of staff has unilateral authority to do what he wants to do.” Instead, the official said, Meadows tells Trump what he wants to hear, and often calls whomever Trump has directed him to call, repeats what Trump told him to say, and then apologizes, explaining that he just needs to be able to tell the boss that he followed his orders.

              Meanwhile, the yes-men are countered mostly by the lawyers, who have tried to convey to Trump that he has put himself at risk of prosecution — not just by inciting Wednesday’s riot, for which the Justice Department is reportedly open to pursuing charges — but for his phone call to Georgia election officials, in which he attempted to pressure them to overturn the results, as well as in the many ongoing investigations related to his businesses and finances.

              “It’s a lot to adjust to. If you think you’re going to be there for four more years, it’s a bit jarring,” the adviser said. “The smart lawyers have gotten to him. It’s all hit him since yesterday: You may have legal exposure from yesterday. You definitely have legal exposure from other things. You have less than two weeks to remain ensconced in here with executive privilege.”


              This adviser, who spoke to Trump on Wednesday amid the siege, said Trump watched the events on television intently. CNN reported that he was so excited by the action, it “freaked out” some staffers around him. The adviser told me that Trump expressed disgust on aesthetic grounds over how “low class” his supporters looked. “He doesn’t like low class things,” the adviser said, explaining that Trump had a similar reaction over the summer to a video of Brad Parscale, his former campaign manager, shirtless and drinking a beer in his driveway during a mental health emergency in which police tackled him and seized his weapons. “He kept mentioning, ‘Oh, did you see him in his beer shirt?’ He was annoyed. To him, it’s just low class, in other words.”

              The adviser said that Trump recently offered them a pardon, although they have not been charged with any crime. The adviser “politely declined.” Others are taking Trump’s pardon offers more seriously, whether they’ve been investigated or are at risk of jail time or not. “He’s just talking up a storm about giving pardons to allies: His kids, and their significant others, and staffers. He’s pretty generous with the offers. When you’re offered one, it’s like, Should I take it? Is it like insurance?”

              One person close to Trump’s legal team told me that the lawyers have struggled to get his attention. “He’s sort of turning on everybody. The president is so visceral, he just can’t hear people unless he can respect them. And he thinks everybody’s a traitor, even the people who got him through impeachment. It’s just nuts.”
              ____________

              GVChamp No, there isn't such a thing as "TDS". Never has been. Because there is virtually no limit to the depths that this man will sink....all for his own ego and bank account.
              Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

              Comment


              • #97
                Trump went 'ballistic' after being tossed off Twitter
                The 'Hemingway of 140 characters' has lost his favorite bullhorn.

                President Donald Trump has many prized possessions. But few seemed to inspire as much personal joy as his Twitter feed. Trump routinely boasted of the social media bullhorn he possessed. He credited it with launching his political trajectory. And he used it as a tool to lacerate his foes.

                On Friday night, he lost it. And, then, he lost his mind.

                The president is “ballistic,” a senior administration official said after Twitter permanently took down his account, citing the possibility that it would be used in the final 12 days of Trump’s presidency to incite violence. The official said Trump was “scrambling to figure out what his options are.”
                So too was much of the political universe, which has become bleary-eyed obsessive about Twitter these past four years as Trump used the medium to fire advisers, sink legislative initiatives, encourage social duress and, lastly, praise the scores of MAGA faithful, just days after hundreds of them violently ransacked the Capitol.

                In a statement issued by the White House, Trump said he’d been “negotiating with various other sites” while “we also look at the possibilities of building out our own platform in the near future.” But aides did not reveal what plans were in the works. When Trump’s eldest son, Don Jr. offered up a URL to those hoping to keep tabs of his father’s whereabouts, it was a site that had been purchased in 2009 and, in recent years, a place where his books were sold. For those who did sign up, an email was sent, plugging his latest work: “Liberal Privilege”.

                “As you know, the election is coming up,” it read, of the contest that took place two months ago.

                For Trump, the Twitter ban was yet another inglorious passage to the final chapter of his presidency. Over the past two days, he’s been admonished by his own aides, chastised by Republicans, and threatened once more with impeachment.

                Through it all, he’s been uncharacteristically quiet — banished temporarily at first from the main social media platforms but also unwilling to go out and speak before the press. The only times the public saw him were through awkwardly-edited White House produced-videos. In one, he urged for the rioting to end while clinging to the fiction that the election had been stolen from him. In another, he conceded he would not serve a second consecutive term.

                There are no plans to immediately emerge from the cocoon either. One White House official said there were initial internal discussions between White House aides and Trump of doing a “last farewell interview.” But, the official added, “I’m not sure if they’re going to come to fruition,” much to the official’s chagrin.

                “I don’t want the lasting impression of this administration to be what happened at the Capitol,” the official said. “We have a lot of accomplishments of this administration that should be highlighted so that we can leave a good final impression.”

                Trump entered office boasting of how he was the “Hemingway of 140 characters” and crediting Twitter in particular for powering his political ascent. More than 56,000 tweets later, he leaves it amid a futile game of Whac-A-Mole with the tech moguls he despises, exiled to the outer provinces of the internet.

                If this is how Trump’s presidency closes out, it will be a remarkable endnote. As a candidate for office, he was — at times — ubiquitous: posting outrageous takes on Twitter, calling into cable news shows, and grabbing the camera’s attention even when the podium on which he was set to hold a campaign rally was empty. Now, he’s increasingly isolated and receding from the spotlight. His favorite bullhorn is gone; oh, and the presidency is too.
                ___________

                They all go down the same way, cut off from the outside world and reality, isolated and cowering in a bunker, a spider hole or just slumped in a corner somewhere, glassy-eyed and utterly exhausted.

                My god is this beautiful
                Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

                Comment


                • #98
                  My instinct after the Georgia debacle was that it wouldn't do too much damage to Trump. His support base would hold and just keep blaming 'RINOs' and all the usual suspects. This feels vastly different. The speed & scale of the recoil is remarkable, even before the death of the policeman was announced. Even some relatively staunch right wing media is backing away now. Republicans who have been going along for 4 years suddenly seem to have found voice.

                  This moment will be what defines Trump's term as President & his people know it, except maybe some of the real hard core. I still think he will have considerable influence with the base, but less than before. I guess the question is what the Party of Trump will look like with a badly wounded Trump lashing out from the sidelines.
                  sigpic

                  Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                    My instinct after the Georgia debacle was that it wouldn't do too much damage to Trump. His support base would hold and just keep blaming 'RINOs' and all the usual suspects. This feels vastly different. The speed & scale of the recoil is remarkable, even before the death of the policeman was announced. Even some relatively staunch right wing media is backing away now. Republicans who have been going along for 4 years suddenly seem to have found voice.

                    This moment will be what defines Trump's term as President & his people know it, except maybe some of the real hard core. I still think he will have considerable influence with the base, but less than before. I guess the question is what the Party of Trump will look like with a badly wounded Trump lashing out from the sidelines.
                    They'll use alternative history to make him sound better than what his time in office has been, like the Confederate supporters who still say the Civil War was only about state's rights.
                    Last edited by statquo; 09 Jan 21,, 06:46.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by statquo View Post

                      They'll use alternative history to make him sound better than what his time in office has been, like the Confederate supporters who still say the Civil War was only state's rights.
                      They will try, but Trump will forever be the 'sore loser' President. He will be the guy who spent months whipping up his suppporters with lies until they murdered a cop who was defending the great symbol of the American Republic from rioters. He will be the guy who cost his party the Senate, snatching a total defeat from the jaws of a limited defeat. He will be the guy who slunk off to his mansion in Florida rather than participate in the official handover of power.

                      His entire Presidency will now be viewed through this lense. Not by the hardocre supporters, but few of them are even capable of reading a history book, let alone writing one. Not even the most passionate Trump hater - Bigfella looks in Tophatter's direction - could have scripted something as perfectly destructive of Trump's legacy as this because so much of it is Trump's own doing. It is a pity that America has been dragged further into the mud, but that path was set in 2016. This will actually make it esier to undo the damage.
                      sigpic

                      Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post

                        They will try, but Trump will forever be the 'sore loser' President. He will be the guy who spent months whipping up his suppporters with lies until they murdered a cop who was defending the great symbol of the American Republic from rioters. He will be the guy who cost his party the Senate, snatching a total defeat from the jaws of a limited defeat. He will be the guy who slunk off to his mansion in Florida rather than participate in the official handover of power.

                        His entire Presidency will now be viewed through this lense. Not by the hardocre supporters, but few of them are even capable of reading a history book, let alone writing one. Not even the most passionate Trump hater - Bigfella looks in Tophatter's direction - could have scripted something as perfectly destructive of Trump's legacy as this because so much of it is Trump's own doing. It is a pity that America has been dragged further into the mud, but that path was set in 2016. This will actually make it esier to undo the damage.
                        Did anyone think in 2016, that the most powerful person in he world would turn out to be like this? I didn't. In fact, I argued with Top, to give him some time to adjust, reassess, manage. But Top was right about Trump.
                        Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                        Comment


                        • To accuse Trumpkin of 'being a fascist' is a bit like saying a monkey could write Shakespeare. He has neither the historical knowledge or intellectual conceptivity to be an anything - ist. He is just abnormally deluded as to his own 'greatness' and importance and most importantly his image. Putin nor Lukashenka are not 'fascists' though they essentially preside over Police States; they are just self interested criminals trying to stay ahead of the retribution of the people they oppressed and robbed. Trump is no different.


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                          • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post

                            So speaking of fungus I was thinking about fungus on the microscopic level which send hyphae to suck up nutrients. Also about how difficult is is to treat vs. bacteria.

                            Then BAM the perfect analogy popped into my head as to why the internet has become so insidious. Computers are planted all over this country, this world, like small seed pods. They are connected to the internet through hyphae.Through this hyphae flows thoughts, ideas, that can be used to alter your mind and take it over. Slowly, but surely, the process creeps along despite warnings from those now on the outside. Too many little seed pods to gather up. Too much hypahe out there to cut down. Too many minds getting absorbed before you realize it and can do anything about it.

                            Welcome to the world of the Invasion of the Mind Snatchers. Think about it awhile and you'll realize the truly scary importance of that.


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                            I like the analogy alot. There is an unpopular, but relatively new field/theory science on the transfer of cultural information called memetics. Memetics has take its inspiration from natural selection and evolution imagining packets of mental information that spread from one mind to the next. Some are better at spreading so populate many minds. You could think of these as mind viruses and they could be good or bad or neutral. And they obviously dont need to be true. I also like this analogy of mind viruses.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
                              This is the truly scary thing here, much more so than the a-holes who invaded the Capitol. After watching his conduct over the last 4 years, 75 million people still decided that they wanted him to continue for 4 more years. If an election were to be held today, after everyone saw what happened at the Capitol, I still doubt that number would come down by a whole lot. These people aren't going anywhere, and nobody has any idea how to reach them and make them understand their folly or try to understand what made so many cast their lot with Trump in the first place. Blaming everything on racism and white supremacy might make for good sound bytes on CNN and MSNBC but if there actually were 75 million white supremacists in the USA, the country would be well and truly f####d.
                              Well this captures both the good news and the bad news. Its not everyone but of those it is its hard to change their mind.

                              Instead of trying to solve the problem that I believe you have fairly charactetised as a headscratcher it might be good to measure the trend, if not by number(although we do have some surveys and its grim), but by concept. Is this a problem that is stationary, growing or declining and at what approximate rate...Perhaps success is not convincing a single person to change their mind but stopping it from increasing...We should imagine how a problem can get worse, and how it can get worse quickly. There is are some reasons to believe that the west is becoming increasingly vulnerable to international actors picking at this sort of infection. We need to think long and hard about how we might need to draw some red lines on this for other countries that look like overreactions regarding cyber actions.

                              Its also seems possible that the best cure short, medium, and also an excellent long term option is improving economic conditions. You can argue if it has had any ultimate causes or not, and while you could argue it has no strong relationship to the problem, this can be both true and yet it can still be a large part of the solution. Good solutions can be found nowhere near the actual problem or what is increasing the problem. And I am referring to real improvements in peoples lives, not headline numbers, private or by the state.

                              Also when you are ill every small health risk grows in proportion as a threat. Old niggles in western society may become grave ones. This brings many other concerns on the table.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post

                                I don't think they can be reached beyond a small number. I look at the far right, alt-right, and whatever else you want to call them this way. There are three groups needed to make them happen. One is the finance guys with the multi millions of dollars. Next is the management/pr guys like Graham, Cruz, Hawley, Nunes, McCarthy, Russ Limburger, Fox News, et al. Third are the foot soldiers you saw swarming the Capital.

                                Foot soldiers are a dime a dozen and can be sacrificed endlessly and usually are. However, they are not the ones you want to stop. The best group, and the hardest nut to crack would be the finance guys who are well insulated. Also the management/pr group is also pretty well insulated enough so they can use the plausible denial trick. I'll put Trump more into management than finance. Now if a management guy strays off to far to be comfortable then the others will throw a bone to everyone by tossing them out on their ass to protect their ass. Trump is getting tossed some now how far remains to be seen. Hawley is definitely being thrown to the dogs to protect all the other guys. See, we got rid of him aren't you proud of us. That is the game.
                                When you have a massive problem, looking at indiviudual actors who have a disproportionate impact is a very good starting point so I agree with much of your point.

                                I would add media has been a big player in getting this ball moving years ago. Media went from trying to capture as much of the audience as possible, to trying to capture as much of a specific niche. So now it tailors for its audience and the media landscape has fractured in increasingly defined ways. This is a massive incentive problem, and incentive problems are very powerful forces.

                                Online also has the incentive problems of adds and is also fracturing into digital islands that feed you not what you want to hear, truth or lies.

                                A really unpopular idea is the concept of the state funding of local news which is dying. Or even the equivalent of the BBC in the UK. People who automatically assume this has no merit may need reconsider if they have appropriately considered the dangers of growing echo chambers and misinformation and the where these trends could lead. It may be time for some controverial solutions even if they only partially impact the problem or its growth rate.
                                Last edited by tantalus; 09 Jan 21,, 16:53.

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